Developing confidence, self-esteem and self-worth in young athletes - 'A conversation with Barry Collie'

In this episode British Gymnastics National Head Coach and sports parent Barry Collie joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss 'Developing confidence, self-esteem and self-worth in young athletes' along with how we can create the best environments possible for young people to thrive both in and out of their sport.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• Applying lessons from his own sporting journey to his own parenting
• Encouraging young people to find joy and bring energy to their passions and pursuits
• Nurturing passion, purpose and persistence
• Encouraging children to laugh, learn, and try again after mistakes
• Parents adapting their approach to suit each child’s personality
• The importance of positive reinforcement particularly in sports with high demands and a focus on mistakes
• Why optimism and hope is so important for all of us
• Encouraging conversations about life beyond sport for both coaches and parents
• Expressing love and pride in our children as people, not just when they achieve success

Barry Collie is a visionary leader and passionate advocate for British gymnastics, currently serving as the Head National Coach for Men’s Artistic Gymnastics. With over 20 years of elite coaching experience, Barry has consistently demonstrated a deep commitment to athlete development, team success, and the long-term growth of the sport.

Known for his optimistic and driven approach, Barry brings an innate ability to inspire those around him. His leadership style is collaborative and empowering—he listens, learns, and leads with purpose, fostering environments where gymnasts and coaches alike can thrive. Barry’s coaching philosophy centres on co-production, ensuring that individual Gymnast Performance Plans are developed in partnership with athletes and clubs to create a unified and high-performance culture.

Barry’s track record includes leading the British junior men’s team to historic success at the European Championships, where his strategic planning and emotional resilience helped secure multiple medals and build future Olympians. His coaching is grounded in strong values, meticulous preparation, and a belief in the power of confidence, routine, and reflection.

A devoted family man, Barry balances his professional intensity with personal warmth, bringing humanity and heart to every aspect of his role. His vision for British gymnastics is bold and inclusive—one that celebrates excellence, nurtures talent, and builds a legacy of pride and performance.

Additional Reading

Sport is a mental game

Helping to foster resilience in our children

Transcript

Speaker 0:13

Welcome to season six of the Permanents in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by British Gymnastics National Head Coach Barry Collie. Barry, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 2 0:26

Pleasure and a privilege.

Speaker 0:27

Now, looking forward to this one, we're gonna have a chat about how we help support the development of confidence, self-esteem, and self-worth in our young athletes. But before we get into that, Barry, can you just tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself, your background, what you're currently up to now?

Speaker 3 0:47

Yeah, my name is Barry Collie. Um, I'm Scottish. Uh yeah, I was born in Scotland. I lived there until I was 16. Uh and then I've spent the last 30 years uh here in England. Uh I live in Yorkshire. I love Yorkshire. It's my my home, it's where my family live. Uh and uh yeah, I'm a gymnastics coach. I was a gymnast. Uh I sort of moved from Scotland to follow my dreams to becoming an international gymnast. Pursued that for many, many years and then retired at 23. And then yeah, throughout my coaching, uh sorry, throughout my gymnastics, I coached. And so yeah, coaching has become a real passion of mine. And uh yeah, I'm very proud of our nation, our flag, and the sport of gymnastics. So the natural progression was to take a job as national coach around about 20 years ago. And I sort of worked my way up the ranks. Uh, started with working with very, very young children and parents at the development end, and then moving through towards juniors, and had huge success success with our junior team, and then yeah, finally sort of sort of following that whole uh path right through to young adults and watching young adults be successful on the world stage. And then, yeah, six months ago I landed my dream job, which is head coach of the men's artistic program.

Speaker 2:07

Amazing, and uh I mean I mean such a such a good I guess career already. And I I think the nice thing for me is again, you you've seen all of those stages from the youngest uh athletes all the way through those teenage years, and then what it what it sort of comes down to at the at the very top end of sport, and I think that's that's important. There's so many different stages that that kids go through, obviously, changes in what they're trying to do and trying to achieve. Um, I think that that experience is invaluable, particularly for today's talk. And we're gonna look at it.

Speaker 3 2:42

I think as well for my for my children, it's been invaluable as well, because I kind of the lessons that I've learned with these these these fantastic gymnasts, I now have a you know a young a young family, which I'm kind of applying all the lessons and things that I've learned with these gymnasts and success and failure, resilience in order to bring up my children in the best way I can.

Speaker 3:05

Yeah, and and uh the those experiences are are invaluable. I mean, I think you're lucky at this stage, uh Barry, not trying to paint this picture of doom, but at the moment, with the age of your kids, they'll be pretty much hooked on uh every word that you're saying. You've got to go through that lovely phase, however, where you'll go from being the person who knew everything to the person who knows nothing, and all those teenage parents that are listening will know what I'm talking about, and that'll that'll present that'll present its its challenges when the world, according to Barry, has absolutely no impact whatsoever on your kids.

Speaker 3 3:40

I actually and not well, not many people, I actually have an elder son who's 21, and so yeah, I have fully experienced that in that um I think it shaped a little bit how my parents are. I was a very, very young father, and it was a difficult relationship, and that that relationship parted ways, but yeah, I've experienced that with Jude, my eldest. Um, you know, I've gone from being probably hero up until you know, sort of 15, 16 to now, where you know, I don't hear from him, which can be quite difficult at times. And uh, you know, he's his own man, and I love him very, very much. But uh yeah, it's just opposite ends of this of the spectrum, isn't it?

Speaker 4:18

Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the things that that stuck out for me, uh a couple of posts on your uh, I guess your LinkedIn profile, and I thought, oh, we'll get Barry on the uh show to talk about this because as you say, you've just uh sort of I guess started your early experiences of of sports parenting and your post of you playing cricket in the back garden uh with your son, and you titled it supporting passion over uh perfection. Um what was going through your mind when you were watching that? Because the videos the video is great, isn't it?

Speaker 3 4:55

I I I wrote um support the spark. Yeah, you know, energy and persistence conquer all things, and it's just you can see that love and that energy and that passion that he has for a sport, which I know nothing about, you know. I know not what an over is or a wicket is or you know, the crease, which is sad as I'm as I'm from Yorkshire now, but um certainly watching him, you know, relentlessly bowl, imagine himself doing it cover drives now and moving the bat and throwing and catching and visualizing him catching, and he says things like catches in matches. And for me, like that's just that there is you know is what's important. I think it's uh I don't want to shape Bodie into what uh you know what I think his image should be. You know, I want to help him be his best self, you know. I want to I really want to do that, be a better version of me. So I think finding that passion and watching him doing it and just being a person who just is dead supportive. And if it takes me to throw a hundred balls at him, which I can't do, but just I just sort of throw them in there, he creams them over the fence and hits him for six. And yeah, he's encouraged me to sort of I watched um India and England and the test, and I'm getting used to the rules, and I go and watch them on a Friday. Yeah, it's a real I I always say that, you know, with the gymnast.

Speaker 2 6:17

Again, it's my alert experience is that passion and purpose are so important, and uh yeah, support the spark, support that spark.

Speaker 6:26

Yeah, and and um where do where do you think that came from from him? You know, normally you get particularly in those early stages, don't you? Parents who'd maybe done a sport who naturally take their kids to have a first taste of of that one. Where did he suddenly pick that up from? Was it just going to a local club? Was it school? Was it someone he'd watched on the TV?

Speaker 3 6:50

Yeah, I mean, Gemma, my partner, she's her family have played cricket, Gemma has scored cricket, so there is there is a bit of a connection there, but in general, I just really thought when my kids were firstborn that you know the first thing would be I need them to catch, I need them to throw, I need them to kick to hold things. Like I would get hevian bottles of water and attach balls to pieces of string and get them to hit stuff. And for me, like as a sports coach, knowing how good that is for your mind, and also gymnastics is such a complex, tough sport, and so my belief of what young people can do at a very young age is I have high expectations. So with both of my children, I'm like, right, balance bikes, throwing, catching, kicking, you know, it just really, really I put a huge emphasis on that, and I and I and I love spending hours with them, either indoors, setting things up or outside, and yeah, and then so Bodhi has an obsession. His first word was ball, you know, because the house was just full of different softballs, spiky balls, coloured balls, and basketball things on the wall. And then yeah, he's just taken to anything I've I've done with him, you know, swimming, tennis, uh cricket, football, rugby. You know, he's he's he he really enjoys it. But the thing that he's really taken to on a Friday, he just loves going to the cricket club, and yeah, he's just always bowling without a ball, you know. He's just spinning. Or just doing the running running down the street and putting the action in hits my head with his arm, and it just drives me. But it doesn't drive me. I love it. I absolutely adore it.

Speaker 8:34

I don't I mean, I I think that's brilliant, and I think we've probably got similar parenting experiences in that idea of getting them into that sort of just general movement, catching, throwing, kicking from a very um young age, and it's so important, you know. I I look at some people today, you know, when they start in sport, and I was a uh teacher and coach and saw new people who were coming coming to me maybe eight, nine, ten, and eleven, and there was definitely a drop in fundamental movement skills, I would say, over the last 15 years of of doing that. That included swimming as well, you know, the levels of of people coming in at what level they could swim, and then you were doing them, and they're they're just the movements of even kicking a ball, and it's so important, isn't it? It doesn't have to cost a fortune, does it? Like you say, you can set it up in a house, okay. You might you might want to remove some of your expensive stuff. We paid the price many years ago for smashing a wedding present and a very expensive vase with a sponge ball that didn't go down very well. You might want to remove all your stuff, but it it it can be done, and it's so good for them, as you say.

Speaker 3 9:50

Yeah, plastic. I mean, I've had a plasma screen TV with a a three-year-old with a plastic golf club and a plastic ball, and I came back through and the screen was sort of shattered, and I thought, oh no, maybe that wasn't the best of ideas. But no, I think it's not like swimming, you know. I've you know, you get them in the pool arm bands, get them to put their face in the water, to kick. An hour in the pool, there's so much that you can do. I'm amazed by my youngest Bella. She's she's almost swimming, but I think purely because she watches Bodhi, and you know, in the bath they put their goggles on and she puts her head under the water. And I watch the coaches at swimming, encouraging them to you know to blow the ball and to push it, you know, like to encourage them. So I've picked up all those things in order for Bella to have a good experience of swimming, and I think, yeah, there's there's lots of really cool things you can do as a parent. Um, I actually loved lockdown because I had so much time during that that that period in order to be creative in a day and set something up that body skittles, you know, knocking things down, bowling things. There's so many things you can do in a house or outdoor, which the kids just you know, balance bikes. They're absolutely I mean, it's amazing. Like, as soon as they can walk, get a light balance bike, get you know, let them can they stand with it, can they walk with it, and the patience of that, and then yeah, by two, two and a half, three, they can be flying around on this on this balance bike, going down hills, building confidence, going in and out of cones.

Speaker 11:21

It's just yeah, it is, yeah. It is and I I think you know, we've got to, I suppose it that I don't know, not this perfect world, but the world we create, we're very fortunate, I guess, as well, because of our backgrounds, that we've got some sense of what what this maybe potentially looks like, and not everybody has access to certain things, but I think yeah, the more we can get our kids um yeah, moving, uh jumping around, throwing things, kicking, like you say, it's absolutely vital for for what comes next. Interestingly, there with your daughter, I I think there's definitely an element of that. See that in your own house, those ones with older siblings who in many ways lead the way and who in many ways are then really creative. And actually, for the second one that comes along, if they've also got a passion, they've also then got that person to look up to and and copy. And if you look at it across the world, generally, not in every case, but generally, the second sibling tends to surpass the first one, not every time, but but I think that it's definitely in their favour.

Speaker 3 12:27

Yeah, she's uh Bella is um so currently I worked hard with Bodhi on sort of failure and um, you know, try again, smile, laugh, learn, try again. You know, like it takes a while for them to understand that that's a real superpower in a human being. Like if you make a say it's fine, laugh, forget about it, try again, do it again. And I've had to really drill that into Bodhi in order for him to think that that's the best, and that is the best way to be. And that I'm trying that that she yeah, exactly that she watches Bodhi. And it's it's a joy for me to hear Bodie then say to his sister, it's okay, Bella, just try again, try again, you know. So he's instilling that in it in his sister, and uh that's a real joy for me to see.

Speaker 13:36

Yeah, it is, and that and I I think that as you say, I've I've got a very similar setup with a a daughter very similar that that sort of followed behind my son and the and and light approaches, and we talk to parents about this a lot, and I think there's a couple of things you brought up there. I think our ability as um parents to recognise that every child is different, I think it's uh an important part of that. You're having to be more patient with your daughter. I certainly have to behave very differently with my daughter to how I chat with my son, it's a completely different approach. Um, and I think also that other bit around failure, I think you know, it's certainly in our parents' talks, and you're talking about developing resilience and helping young people. What's actually changed, I think, a lot, Barry, is our reaction to mistakes, which doesn't help it. Like you say, if we're able to just say, oh, don't worry, just get on with it, you know, have another go and not make such a big deal of it. But any form of mistake disappointment, we're treating it like it, you know, it can be the worst thing in the world. And as a result, we're sending kids emotions all over the place. And actually, hang on, we're we're all gonna make millions of mistakes, just like they do at every level of sport.

Speaker 3 14:52

And what's changing self-worth it shatters your self-worth, it really does if you you know you you punish yourself for failure, or you you know, you get frustrated or angry, you don't feel good about yourself. And I think that's yeah, that's that's really, really important. And I think especially because I I've worked so many years in gymnastics, where gymnastics is just an it's uh it's kind of inherently like a negative sport, you know, you start from you work hard to gain points, yeah, and then you just take stuff away. You don't actually gain anything, they just take stuff away, that's negative. I think 90% of gymnastics is is failure. It's you you make a mistake, you land short, you do this, and then you do it again. And there's so many repetitions that if you have the mindset that you are useless and you just can't do it first go, you're never going to succeed in the sport. And I think watching uh some of the athletes have had so much pleasure in them, you know, make an error, make a mistake at a competition is fine, it's okay, move on, move forward, another competition, being allowed to make errors and make mistakes because that's just part of the journey. That's just part of the learning to be an expert. I think, therefore, now with my youngsters who I want to have high self-worth and high self-esteem, part of that is about seeing failure as an opportunity just for for learning, and it's gone. Pick up a point, do it again. Eventually, it will become yeah, just something that they they do just naturally without any emotion, without any thought of doubt. Because I for me personally, when I was a young person, I had very, very low self-worth, low self-esteem, and I would always think about what would what could happen when we go wrong, or you know, very negative, you know. And I think it's only since I become an adult and I've worked on my self-esteem and and and understand like where my pride comes from myself and kind of developed a model as to what my self-esteem is is made up of, that I've understood how important that is for confidence. You know, I I say to my children, confidence is a superpower. I say that all the time. I say, What's your superpower? They will say confidence. And that for me is making sure that they have high self-worth. Um specifically for my daughter, you know, I think that's really important for a young person, female.

Speaker 17:20

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And with a with a teenage daughter at the moment as well, and and trying to achieve in sport, I think they have so many challenges, you know, in their school environments, perceptions, what's cool, what isn't cool, social media, all of those things. And actually, you just want them to fit, like you say, you just want them to be confident in what they're doing and feel good about themselves. And you know, I think it probably upsets me the most is when you hear some comments from her that are clearly driven by external factors that you've got no control over, and it just can in many ways can make you really sad that that's what the world is.

Speaker 3 18:00

Sad and yeah, quite quite worried for them. You know, see I see a lot of individuals, young people that I do I worry about. I think, well, where where where will that go? Where will that end? Yeah, what does your future look like? And uh yeah, it can be quite frightening because when I was a young person, I would hide all that. You wouldn't have told, you wouldn't have known. You'd be like, Oh, he's easy, all right. But internally, I had no self-worth. Internally, I really felt low about myself, and I was very frightened and and insecure and what was not ready for the world at all, you know. And so, and I had to grow up very, very quick um when I left home at 16. And probably when I had my first child, Jude, uh, you know, I was a child myself, you know, I was only 23, and I wasn't ready for that. And um, yeah, I've had to do a lot of growing up and a lot of learning with with Jude, and um, you know, and but then I I think I've worked with Jude in the fact that he is he's he's an actor, and so he he's gone with what he's passionate at. You know, he wanted to be an actor, he's he's doing fantastic, he's he's pursuing his dream like I did. He's 21 years old, he's got a Netflix program, and he's yeah, he's living his dream. So, yeah, there are there are parts of um being a father that I feel like I've influenced my oldest son, um, but not as much as I probably would have hoped to, um, given my experience when I was a was a young child. And I guess I'm I'm very fortunate to have this um a second opportunity, and just whilst having dude there, you know, someone that I love and I'm very proud of him, but having this unique opportunity where my my children have a school next to the house and I get to go to their sports clubs, and yeah, I get to be a really positive influence in their life. That's what I'm really grateful for.

Speaker 19:49

Yeah, excellent. I I'm just gonna go back to that uh supporting the passion, I think, and the dream one. You know, I've had to live out very recently a son who, you know, signed for a Category One Academy at the age of nine, spent his early childhood playing Liverpool, Man City, and United Every, did all those things, was released at released at 12, still played at a really high level for a number of years, just outside um Academy football. And he this year has decided to take a different path that he's got to concentrate on his exams, but he's also a single-figure golfer and he's set himself the the challenge of getting to scratch. Now, I I think that's very bold. What scares me a little bit, and obviously hindsight's a wonderful thing, is he was never as motivated by his football as he is for his golf. And I pushed his his his sort of football and his cricket and some of those things that we did, and it is him that drives the journey of can you tell me to the golf course? Can you do it? And he would spend 12 hours a day there if he could, without any shadow of a doubt, and he's clearly passionate about it. But that makes it quite scary that the first 15 years it's like, oh God, we did introduce him to golf, and you do try and give them variety. We've got to be so careful, haven't we? Because probably in the long run, if it doesn't come from them, it becomes really tricky. I'm not gonna say that there aren't some really top performers who are still at the top, even though they maybe don't like it or didn't even want to do it, they're just they're just quite good at it, because that does exist as well. But ultimately, really, it's they've got to drive that journey, particularly when they become teenagers, don't they? And you must see that through those junior pathways.

Speaker 3 21:44

Yeah, my my um my favorite quote of all time is a quote by T. Lawrence, and it says that all men dream but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their mind, wake in the day to find it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day. Are dangerous men, for they may act upon their dreams with open eyes to make them possible. But the quote, the quote is about visualizing and bringing to life what it is you want and what it is you desire. And I think when you see a child that's passionate perhaps about golf or or cricket or whatever the sport is, I work hard to say, tell me what it is you're gonna achieve and describe it in the future. You know, where we are, I'll be on the PGA tour, I win this, I sink the pot on the 18th, and my dad cheers with me, my family's there, and you know, they're able to. That's a good clue for me. You know, like if I said to Bodie, which team are you gonna play for football, Bodie? He'd be like, Huddersfield town, and what will it be like? Tell me the day that you're gonna come on the pitch. And he can he can say it, you know, he can speak about it, he can anything. I think that that strong, active visualization with feeling and emotion, which makes the mum and dad smile or the children smile. I think that's a really, really unique thing that comes from individuals. And certainly when I was a gymnast, I no, sorry, when I was a young person, all I fantasized about was what I found, which was gymnastics. I think it could have been any sport. I think it was a coach that I was close to, and he was a good man, he was a kind man, and I think he showed me empathy, and I think that's what sort of my my hook was, because family life wasn't great, so I think it was gymnastics. I became passionate about it, and to be honest, that's all I thought about. I just would dream about it, imagine myself at the Olympics, imagine myself training every day. And I think if as a parent you can find those things that you know, that true, yeah, that spark, that creativity, that imagination, you know, fuel that and and and get them into that because that is so important, and and just and it's not never too late, you know. I think you know, people can do amazing things, you know.

Speaker 24:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You just maybe have to change the parameters a a little bit, Barry, as we head towards head towards 50. We're just gonna have to have a look at how we can do the over 50s bit, I think. Certainly in my case. Um, I now you you get to work with some of the the best gymnasts in the world, uh, and you it's all about the environment, I know, for you in what you create to help them thrive as both performers and as people. What have you brought into the environment, or what do you deem as important? You know, I know some of your gymnasts and they've helped me out in a couple of talks, and the environment, they all talk very positively. What is it? What is it in that that environment that you're trying to create to help them thrive?

Speaker 3 24:53

Uh I always say never underestimate the power of having fun. So, regardless, yes, what I do is serious, what I do has is goal-driven, you know, I have targets, I have pressures, but you know, we always enjoy our time together. I think that's the main thing. There have been times in my career where I've created environments which are just about results and you know, success, as in I perceive success, as in medals. And what I've found is that I would go on that process, and the outcome would be a medal, but then I did enjoy the process. So the outcome and the medal felt good for five minutes, and actually, me and my team never enjoyed any of it. So, really, I'm very process-focused now uh in our environments in that, yeah, let's make moments and memories together. Don't get me wrong, you know, we want to do well, we want to be successful, but I work hard to understand what does success look like for them as individuals. Um, what does it look like for us as a team? And then, you know, what challenges might we encounter, and how will we deal with those challenges? And I think when you when you have environments where you get those things um aligned and set, then yeah, you know, you have a wonderful time and you can still have the same outcome, but you're gonna be left with magical moments, memories, smiles, um, pictures, emotion, as well as you know, you know, tough times, uh pneumonia, grafting, working together, suffering together. Yeah. And it's it's a much better experience. I guess it's just through my lived experiences of maybe getting it wrong and making mistakes as a young coach to now being armed with yeah, some some ideas on how you create good environments.

Speaker 26:41

Yeah, and I the there's a there's a couple of big things for me. I'm big on experience at the moment, those people that have lived it, been through it, but then who also have evolved through it. It's no good. So you're not experiencing if you've done the same thing for 50 years, but those that have lived it, seen what's worked, evolved, thought, oh god, actually, I need to adapt that and need to do it, and you end up in quite a nice place. The the the other bit around fun and enjoyment, and you've you've expanded a little bit on that. I meet a lot of parents, and we just had this in the States recently, and talking to them about what is their perception of a good environment, what is their perception of a good coaching session, what is their perception of a of a good coach, and it's actually quite scary what they perceive those to actually be. So if I take it if I take an example of a coach who is always shouting really passionate, joysticking kids around fields, instructive all the time, letting them make no decisions themselves. A lot of parents think goy's a really good coach, he cares about our kid, as opposed to the other one who's been really thoughtful, giving really good feedback at the thing and and and all of those things. Yet he can be described as lacking passion. Now, I think we've got this weird thing around fun and enjoyment. We again, it's something we talk a lot about in sessions with parents, is that I think some parents feel, well, how can we be achieving if there's if it's fun and enjoyment, it's too flaky, which we know it isn't, but they do struggle with that that concept and idea. But in fun and enjoyment, and certainly in the enjoyment piece, there is a lot of hard work, there's a lot of obstacles, isn't there? There's a lot of things to overcome, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of suffering. Now, not pain and suffering in a in the boat in painting really bad pictures in your mind, but that is the reality of trying to be a performer.

Speaker 3 28:46

Yeah, a marathon is painful, like a marathon is not enjoyable until you do it. But the joy that you feel at the end of it, yeah, that's like a training session. I'm sure sometimes when I frame a training session with my team, they think that's gonna be really tough. But hey, we've all bought into it, we've all said we're gonna support each other. If we overcome challenges, we're gonna, you know, support get through it together. But the enjoyment at the end of it and the fun when we succeed, and you'll remember that suffering together. I think that's that's kind of what I mean. And it I think it boils down to like as a good coach is understands autonomy, they understand, you know, perhaps when there is no autonomy, it's kind of I'm the leader and I'm the one who's got the most lived experience, and I know what's right for you guys, and I'm trying to be not be kind but do the right thing in order to prepare you for this pressurized environment, you know, which gymnastics is a hugely pressurized environment, which is gonna be tough and we're gonna be hard, and we want to do well because you've got targets that you guys want to hit, you don't want to let your teammates down. So sometimes there is no autonomy because I accept the the plan and the coach is for, but other times that scale, that frequency moves, and it and a good coach is able to complete autonomy, you know, like they're driving their program, or it's or it's shared, and it's just moving that dial up and down all the time.

Speaker 30:17

I want to I want to jump in on this because I I think this is really important, and I have this challenge out with coaches and everything else. If you look at um coaching today, and you look at the world of social media and you look at these ideas for what the the perfect environment looks like, clearly driven by people who are sat in an office and have never actually been on the ground and the and the realities of it. You've just summed that up beautifully because some days you can give complete autonomy to your young athletes, some days you'll give them a bit of autonomy, some days, as a coach, you're saying, you know what, this is what we're doing. Because I've decided, and I have this with a lot of coaches at the moment. Back yourself on what you're doing. You can't fit every strand of coach education into one session because everything has to have context attached to it. So being aware of all these things, the environments you're trying to create, you are trying to, I don't know, embed throughout the programs, but you can't do it 100% of the time, every time to every letter of the law, because that's not realistic.

Speaker 3 31:29

No, but it's not it's not possible, also, because you're not with them. I'm not with them 100% of the time. So there'll be times where they are I'm having to trust them because they're back in their club, and I don't know what they're doing. There'll be other times when we come together for a two-week build-up where it's you know, yeah, you're gonna have to be direct, uh, yeah, you know, or different times in the year, different, different situations. You just have to always, and that does not just gymnasts, that can be members of my team that I line manage, you know, and there'll be different outcomes, you know, too much autonomy. You maybe get things done quick, but you'll make mistakes because there's no one checking them. Not any autonomy at all, not very good, really, because too much control, yeah. But it's sometimes it is necessary, yeah. And different individuals will require different things. Um, I have athletes, gymnasts, members of staff who do not like to be left to do what they want to do. You know, they don't want to be like, and you just come up with something creative, they'd rather be told this is what the brief is, this is what I need you to do, and this is what I need you to do it by. Yeah, so I think it's just finding that being aware of what the the outcomes could be by moving that autonomy gauge and then knowing when to to step in and lead and when to allow people to express themselves.

Speaker 32:55

Yeah, I I I think that's brilliantly part. It's one of the best descriptions I've heard of it recently, is moving up the dials of all these things that we know make good environments and good coaching, and we're going to turn those up and down, like you say, depending on where we maybe are, what it means for the particular individual in front of us, and also what's the priority on that given on that given day. I was I was thinking back over team talks, and you know, I coached a couple of national title winning sides, you know, teenagers, rugby sevens, and I was telling this story um the other week in a in a quarter final of a game, and you you think about your coaching, and I remember a first half of a game where the penalty count was massively against us, and I walked onto the pitch at half time and we were we were struggling, and it was a quarter final and I walked past the referee, and I think it took 20 years of experience for me to say I said, Oh, is there anything you want me to talk to them about? Because they seem to be giving away a lot of penalties. I thought I'd do it, do it nicely, and they said something, and I started to say something back, and there was just something that went off and said, Shut your mouth, go and do what you need to do and leave it alone because this is going to be worse if you say anything else. And you talk about those experiences and the time where you maybe would have said more, or you maybe would have adjusted. And the reason I'm telling the story is the next bit was really important because there was no autonomy in that half-time team talk. It was very clear that this is what needs to happen if we want to get to a semi-final. There was no discussions asking anybody how they felt about it or whatever. You had a minute and a half, and this is what we're gonna do with real clarity.

Speaker 3 34:55

And to have that, but I think to have that discussion there, it's like you have to remove the emotion of it because sometimes, like, it's like how how you approach that is really important. And I've learned that because I could be quite passionate and we need to do this, and sometimes in that moment, that's not what what children or gymnasts or people need. It's almost sometimes now. I'm a lot more diplomatic in that I think having that going away and saying, Hey, as a team, we all agree this, this, this, and this, and this, and this is how we're gonna act. This is what we're all what's what keeps us together. Now, yesterday or after the penalty shooter, I I observed this, and you know, you weren't listening, you weren't doing, you know, that these are the things that which we all agree to do. Therefore, it there's a lack of trust now as us as a team and as human beings. So, what are we gonna do to work that through? Yeah, and that there then kind of allows them to reflect and to feed back as to and for them to think about the mistakes that they made and think, yeah, I've I've let me, myself down, team down, and yeah, you can put your arm around them. And I think that's a really useful thing that I've yeah, it's it's a tool that someone showed me trust, alignment, and autonomy, you know, like how you and it's for me, uh it's really sparked a lot of thought for me over the last sort of three or four years, where you know, coaching has come under the spotlight, uh, specifically the gymnastics or of um you know, coaches perhaps having being dictators and being way too much autonomy and the gymnasts having no say, and and therefore I've had to it's something that I've never supported. I've always wanted buy-in from everyone, I always collaborate and have feedback, and I've worked really hard to to to work hard with even nine-year-olds to get feedback and stuff. So, this this new tool and a new way of sort of thinking and to create uh an environment and a culture which is successful and process and outcome focused has been really, really useful. So I'm still I'm still learning and I'm still moving the the dial myself. You know, I I will be I've been away on holiday, so I have no autonomy. I have you know, their guys and my team and the gymnasts. I'm I'm hoping that they've been working, and uh, we have a world championship trial and next weekend, and yeah, I will flip into a different mode sort of for the next couple of months on the build-up for the world championships, where yeah, I will be flipping that dial back down to sort of you know myself driving what the program needs and what the my team needs.

Speaker 37:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it's context, isn't it? A couple of months into a world championships may look very different uh six months after one of those major events. That that's the other thing, isn't it? When you talk about people trying to say there's black and white solutions, these things are ever evolving and are forever different, and that's the skill of programs and coaching, isn't it?

Speaker 3 38:00

Knowing when to do what at the right times, completely, and especially when I'm working with creative people, you know, these are gymnasts, they are creative, they're extroverted, introverted, they are uh performers. You know, these guys work for eight weeks to deliver a routine which is 30 seconds to probably a minute long under pressure on a stage where you get one chance, where everything is stacked against you, you know, the time, the judges, the pressure, the crowd, the noise, you can't simulate it, and you get one chance. You might have done that routine you know, a hundred times clean, it will have taken you eight weeks to get that fit similar to boxing. Um, and then you get that one shot. So yeah, these these people are very unique individuals. So to close them or to uh get close to them, um to have a connection with them, to have rapport with them, is a real takes some real skill.

Speaker 39:00

Yeah, and it it's amazing watching them. I do have to say, I mean, I travel around a lot of sports, being up close to some of those uh gymnasts and watching, and and I guess it is, it's that um for me, it's also that persistence, which is something we've already we've we've already talked about, is their ability just to persist in striving for perfection to keep persisting and persisting and over and over and over again. Um it's such a key a key trait. You don't want young people thinking, oh well, it doesn't work now. I can't I you know this this doesn't work. We've got to try and help them understand, but you know, to get something or to achieve something does require, and it doesn't happen overnight. And I suppose society isn't helping that now, Barry, is it, where everything can be quite instant, gratification can come quite instantly. If you want to be good at sport, the probably the reality is it's pretty long, pretty tough, pretty arduous. There's an awful lot to to get through. There are not many shortcuts, is there?

Speaker 3 40:08

No, it requires plus one optimism, and I think um an analogy that I always work hard with the um my gymnasts is um, you know, if you had a scale, a set of scales with a you know a 10 kilo weight on one end and nothing on the other end, you know, if you were to throw 10p pieces at the the weights on the other side, you know, you would keep throwing 10p pieces, which are goals or opportunities or hours trained, keep you know, eventually you won't know when you will not have a clue, but one 10p that weight will move. Yeah, two more temp's that weight will move you more, and there'll be one more temp where it'll just go bang, and you've achieved it, but you never know. No, and you know, I think all things are difficult before they're easy, and I think uh it's really important thing to teach young people that and uh yeah, I'm a really one thing I've had to be resilient throughout all my life, and the one thing that has got me to where I am today is optimism. Really, I'm an optimistic person. I'm optimistic that you know, no matter how bad things can be, there's always been a point in my life where it's got better, no matter how hard it was, how challenging there was, but I think that's optimism is so important, it's really important.

Speaker 41:21

Yeah, and I think I'd I've you've just got me thinking about a quote I read the other week. I thought that's that's quite cool, you know. Hope is the last thing to go or the last thing to die. Beautiful, beautiful, yeah. You know, if you keep believing, keep hoping, you it just keeps you striving, doesn't it? And I I think that's that's so important for all of us, not just for for young people.

Speaker 3 41:44

People sometimes can find that a bit cliche. Oh, doesn't it? Yeah, it's not it's like it's it's it's not, it's really not. It's like I've I've had athletes and gymnasts who you know suffered very like horrendous knee injuries or horrendous you know accident where you know they've been on the top of their game and they're about to you know move into the senior team and to Olympics, and and they've had a devastating injury where you know, showing them that no matter how bad things are in life, uh a good thing to do when you wake up is to write down three things that you are optimistic about or you are grateful for, you know, and that might be that you know you you made it downstairs to have a cup of tea, or you know, it was sunny outside and you go out for half an hour, and just you know, you set yourself the target of reading three chapters of a book and you actually manage to do it, or you you you rang an old friend. There are always something optimistic for any human being in any situation, I believe. Um I think this might again my lived experience of some very, very challenging times in my life where I really had to think a lot about finding some sort of optimism in that moment in order to get to the next day.

Speaker 42:53

Yeah, absolutely. Now, just conscious of the time barrier, we've gone off on all kinds of tangents. I'm just looking back at our title, Developing Confidence and Self-Esteem. I think we've probably taught uh a little bit about that. We've then gone off on tangents, which is absolutely fine, which is pretty normal for this podcast. Uh, I just want to bring it back to the self-worth piece, I guess, as our final part of this, because we all want people to feel good about themselves, young performers, what they do. Sometimes in sport, though, that direct correlation between what they're achieving as performers and them as people, you know, sort of, I guess, crossing the the divide can cause problems, and it is really complex because obviously a large part of their identity is gymnastics, so there is gonna there is gonna be some crossover. It's not just gonna be as easy as saying, well, that's there and that's there, you've got to separate them. Yes, you have, but it it's probably more difficult than that. What do you think we can do to support young performers as parents and coaches, even, on just that whole self-worth piece and trying to separate the two?

Speaker 3 44:12

We're working really hard at British gymnastics now to have gymnastic plans meetings with our young uh, well, from very, very young junior athletes up to seniors, where we develop them as people. It's not it's a live training compete model. So it's you know, it's not just your gymnastics plan and where you want to go and what your aspirations are. It's it's it's about you as a person. How's your family life? What are you interested in outside of gym? What your GCSE is looking like, you're gonna get three, you're gonna get eight. Like, what do you what do you want to do outside gym? Can you oh I've just read a book, I can cut you like having a young person that's able to come online with their parents and their coach and me and uh some of my wonderful support team. And and yeah, you can question them and they can talk openly. Initially, it might feel quite difficult, but you can ask them questions and they can they can open up about their lives. That will create what I would coin as a self-esteem house. So my self-esteem house has four walls. Um it's perhaps rooted in what I struggle with. So one thing part of I have my self-worth is is money. Um, I never had much money as a child, and that you know, there was a lot of debt and a lot of stress. And one thing I'm not very good at is making sure that you know I provide, I want to provide for my family, but it's a stress of mine is that can I do it? How do I keep forward? How do I make sure my family has a holiday, that we go to Cornwall, that we have nice things, and therefore for me, when I I take my off the ball of that or I'm not developing myself, I have low self-worth. Where when I'm when I'm organized, that I'm not being wasteful and I'm and I'm planning for my future, I have high self-worth, self-pride. So for me, that sort of weakness, that thing that I don't like, I work on. Second wall is is my family. It's clearly family means everything to me. So, you know, making sure that I make time for my partner, my children, Jude, Bodhi, Bella. Um, I read to them, I spend time with them, I listen to them. That's massive. You know, I have to have that. Uh, third wall is work, it's it is its work, it's it's my life, gymnastics and my job. I love it, and so there I therefore I have to give the right amount of time to that. And when I'm doing well at work, when I'm organized and I'm doing podcasts or I'm doing things for people, like I feel good, I feel happy about myself. And then the the final part of myself is seeing it's just me. It's am I looking after me? You know, am I developing myself? Am I sharing? Am I being vulnerable? Am I um keeping myself fit, being careful how much I drink, you know, like about how much I eat, am I exercising? When I do those things and am I sleeping, I feel good, you know, I feel happy. And it's it's making sure that it's taken me a while to understand that those four walls, I feel really good, and I can handle anything. And it's just making sure that perhaps at some times while I'm not focusing on that, or I'm not thinking about myself, or I'm spending too much time at work. Okay, I need back home. This summer has been quite chaotic with the children, and I'm missing work, so it's just there's no balance, it's just making sure I do equal parts of it. So self-esteem and human being in young people, I want them to understand what makes them proud, what makes you proud about yourself, you know. That is what self-esteem is. It's you know, and I think it's genuine, it can't be fake, like, oh yeah, I feel really good. Like, I want young people to be able to come online and talk about what makes them proud. And I think from my observation, all of the gymnasts that I see that have performed well, been hugely successful, have all demonstrated high self-worth. The gymnasts that have enjoyed training but probably struggled in pressured situations or in in competition, I think had low self-worth. And therefore, for me as a head national coach, I intend to develop these human beings as people in order to get a performance gain.

Speaker 48:15

Brilliant. I I mean I I love that, and I think that's probably a really good way to finish this episode. I I think one final I think note for me for for parents, then just bearing in mind what you've talked about about walls, getting kids to talk, is probably our role is to try and facilitate really good conversations with our kids, make sure that they have other interests, don't always just talk about that sport as the only topic of conversation. Don't fall into the trap of saying that you love them and you're proud of them, but it's always linked to a specific outcome. And many parents I talk to do that not deliberately because they're trying to cause harm, but they think, oh my goodness, yeah, every time I'm saying a lot of these things is based around whether they've achieved something, whether it be at school or whether it be in their sport, rather than just loving them for who they are and and what they're doing and and them as people. So that we've we've talked about lots of things uh in today's episode. Barry, absolute pleasure uh to have you on. Thank you for joining us, and I look forward to doing it again um in the future.

Speaker 1 49:29

Thank you for listening. Check it out.