'Technology and Talent' - supporting young people's performance and personal development - 'A conversation with Beth Kerr'

In this episode human development and performance consultant Beth Kerr joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss ‘Technology and Talent' and how we can support young people's performance and personal development.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• The emotional tug-of-war that parents face regarding technology use
• The pros and cons of technology usage on performance and personal development
• Cause and Effect - is linking this to their performance outcomes key in supporting positive behaviours with technology
• Teaching young people about how their developing brains affect impulse control, emotional reactivity and peer influence
• Co-creating positive habits in the home environment
• The value in sporting organisations and coaches creating environments where expectations around technology use are transparent and enforced, while also allowing for support and compassion if rules are broken
• The complexities of parents managing social media accounts for their children

Beth Kerr is a human development and performance consultant. She specialises in empowering adolescents - and those who work with or care for them, to build the skills needed to thrive in high-performing environments. 

Educated at Loughborough University (BSc) and University College London (MSc in Child and Adolescent Mental Health), Beth is a global educator, researcher, consultant, and experienced media commentator, with a particular focus on the health and wellbeing of young people in the digital age. 

Beth collaborates with a wide range of organisations, schools, and football clubs, equipping individuals with practical tools to take charge of their health and digital habits. Her work centres on strengthening relationships, enhancing wellbeing, and driving positive outcomes both personally and professionally.

 Deeply committed to meaningful change, Beth is passionate about challenging the status quo, shaping healthier digital cultures, and supporting people to thrive in an increasingly connected world.

Additional Reading

Working with time to help our children balance their busy schedules

Stuart Lancaster - A few thoughts on Sports Parenting

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:13

Welcome to season six of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I am your host, Gordon Maclelland, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Human Development and Performance Consultant Beth Kerr. Beth, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:27

Thank you so much for having me. Lovely to be here.

Speaker 1 0:30

Now we're doing a huge topic today: technology and talent, and how we can support young people's performance and personal development. We know it's a hot topic. We know it's talked about in lots of sporting organisations, talked a lot about by coaches. We know that parents face their own challenges, and we also know that we need to support our young people. Now I know a little bit about you, Beth, but I think it's a good opportunity to get started to let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself, yourself, your experience, some of the things that you've currently been working on.

Speaker 1:10

Okay, well, uh I come from I was a P teacher by trade, worked in school leadership um in the UK and all over the world. And like essentially I help adolescents, so you know, anyone from 10 to 25 to 6 onwards, and those who who work with and care for them um to build microhabits around their digital use and well-being to support them in you know whatever they want to do. Um so as I said, I've worked with in schools, in young people in in all over the world, in uh organizations like number one fan club, which also helps parents um support people in the academy football world and grassroots. And and I also have three children, um, twin 12-year-olds, um, both who have experience of academy football, and uh, and a 16-year-old who can't bear football but loves netball. And um, they are not huge fans of my job because they knew the twins knew they always were gonna start year seven with a Nokia. So I'm not, you know, Miss Popular mum, but uh they've survived. They're still they're still talking to me.

Speaker 1 2:17

Lucky you, I I uh I have my own challenges with that. And I look, I'm not gonna lie, I've definitely threatened over the years to throw away all technology out of our home uh when I've become frustrated with its negative influences, when I feel my kids have potentially wasted a whole day, or were wanting to have a conversation and they're not on the same planet because they're totally um you know absorbed by their technology. Um, we know Jamie Redknapp claimed earlier this year that mobile phones were the killer of all young players. Um, probably both of our approaches are great for grabbing attention, but not probably the way to solve uh the actual challenge uh around it. What are your initial thoughts on this?

Speaker 3:08

Yeah, that's what that Jamie Rednap quote did that sort of inspired my first bit of research on on uh tech and the talent in this in this world. And so I think look, first of all, I think you are in good company. I am sure every parent can relate to that. You're always on that phone, you know, sort of thing that goes through your head. But look, I can't tell you if it's right or wrong. I can't tell you, is it effective or is it possible to do that, get rid of the phone without doing immeasurable damage to your relationship with your child and your health? I I'm not sure. So I I think the truth is that Pandora's box is well and truly open. And um, although the internet wasn't designed for children, it it certainly is their playground now. Um and I I feel that I'm I think a lot of us would make different decisions about our phone rules if we knew now what we knew, if we knew if we know now what we knew then, but um or then now, sorry. Um and I I remember I feel quite fortunate because when my twins were about two, it was all that time when you were, you know, give iPads and because you you're gonna help them and their future and all this sort of stuff. So they didn't have an iPad, they had access to mine. And I remember losing the the charger for it. And um at the same time, I was really fortunate. It coincided, I was doing a master's in child and adolescent mental health, and we were doing loads of stuff on neuroscience and how the brain it develops and works. And at the same time, I realized that in this week when I couldn't find the charger, they I thought, oh my god, this is easier. I'm not getting all these sort of extreme emotions of, you know, that when I say put the jigsaw away or say come in from the garden, it wasn't the same. And so it really made me rethink how I approached it. And and as a parent, therefore, I think it is okay to retrospectively put in boundaries. Now, of course, the older they are, the harder this is for sure. Um, but I think it is okay to change your mind in response to new evidence if it convinces you that current behaviours or habits are not helping your child towards their goal. Um, and I guess I look at it a bit like a you know, a 17-year-old driving. Do I want to learn how to drive? Yes, of course I do. Um because I'm fed up of taking them on lifts and dropping them off every match. But do I just let them, you know, take the car and go for it even when they pass the test? No, of course not. There's loads of things that I think about. And I have I own the car, I pay for the car, I'm gonna put the rules in. And, you know, I think sometimes we forget as parents, we do have the power. It's just extremely difficult, and it gets much harder the older you get. So when I do talk, when I speak with primary schools, it's a much more positive and upbeat conversation than when you're talking of a parent of a 14 or a 15-year-old, when then it is for sure it is much harder.

Speaker 1 6:02

Yeah, look, I mean, the reality of trying to do it with with teenagers, and we touch on this topic a little bit in talks, not the depth we're gonna go in today, but talk about some of those boundaries. And I always say, please don't go out of here and say to your kids things are gonna change now and you're gonna remove the device because you're gonna have World War III, you're gonna have a tantrum, you're gonna have swearing, whatever thing. Now, they may well be addicted to those devices, which is probably the response, but because it's just suddenly come so abruptly out of nowhere, the sheer shock of it does not lead itself to a positive conversation. And I think I think with teenagers in general working with them, and obviously some of the messaging we know as adults, just generally around performance, some of the character traits they're gonna need, maybe around device usage, they have got to be able to see the benefits perhaps of some of the choices that they make around them that's ultimately gonna benefit um their performance, or also be able to relate to it in their own lives, because otherwise we're just gonna become oh, they're just the old person, that's mum and dad telling us that we should do this and we shouldn't do this. And the conversation's got to be a lot more than that, hasn't it?

Speaker 7:21

Yeah, and actually, it's funny you say that. I before this report, I wrote no, I I interviewed children from all over the world um about their what they thought you know was going to be helpful about tech or what were the challenges for them. And across he was like Latin America, Asia, Middle East, Europe, and and across the board, they all said that there was this gap in terms of how they uh perceived and used this. You know, it's one world for them, it's not like the online world and the offline world, and their parents and teachers and e-safety assemblies, all this they were very disparaging about it. And they said things like, you know, my my my mum, if I've done anything wrong, they tried, I'm taking the phone away. And they don't look at the fact that the phone is not the phone, it has on it all my friends, all my access to music, all my all this. And in the same way, I suppose I thought, yeah, that's a good point. If I if my children, if I was going out and I said to the kids, right, don't eat all the sweets in the cupboard, and I went out and I came back and they'd eaten all the sweets in the cupboard. I wouldn't say, right, that's it, you're not having any food, nor food. I'm taking all food away from you. I'd say, okay, I'm gonna do something, nor sweets from whatever it is. And in the same way, if they've if they've you know been on Instagram or whatever for so long, fine, have different, but you say, Well, actually, Instagram now is I'm gonna change the barrier. I don't have to take away everything else that it does. So I think sometimes adults do underestimate or you know, they just don't relate in the same way, that it's not just the phone, one thing, and they find it really irritating when we do that. And so trying to be a bit more discerning, um, without sounding like a complete idiot because it's so complicated anyway, um, is is tricky but probably quite important.

Speaker 1 9:04

Yeah, we've we just bang it all under the same umbrella, don't we? We do. For the being on it, and actually, well, actually, for the first 20 minutes of that, that was probably quite useful. And actually, you were talking to your best friend, and actually, potentially you don't live anywhere near them, and actually that was really good for you. Maybe the next 30 minutes of mindless scrolling that drives us up the wall, it's probably a slightly different, uh different thing. Now, I think what we've then got to be able to do if we're wanting to develop these healthy habits, have really positive conversations around technology and talent. I think we do have to also be aware that there are a lot of pros of technology. So I think we've got to decipher this then. So let's let's we're obviously going to talk pros and cons, but let's look at some of the benefits of technology today for young talented people and how it can aid performance. What are you thinking?

Speaker 9:59

Look, when we start, I if we if we look at sports particularly, and and we're because we're we're talking to parents of children, talented children, and and that you know, so so I'm sort of looking at it through that lens. Well, you know, number one, I think it's really important to call out it has democratized access to high-quality sport. Anywhere in the world, you can watch high-quality sports, you can look at clips, you can really try to mirror that sort of thing. And that that's it doesn't matter where you are, that is that you know, within reason, obviously. I think that the biggest impact in terms of performance development is this transformative ability to analyze and be accountable for your own, you know, your own performance. You know, gone are the days where you say, Oh, I was really good. I yeah, that cross was amazing, it was amazing. And then you say, Well, let's have a look at it, and then that actually was it, and and you can and you can look at what, and you can do that both ways. What are you doing really well? Because sometimes kids are really negative about their performance, oh, that was rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, and then you say, No, look, look at that, you know, and sometimes um that can really highlight that. So that ability to analyse, break down skills, and then be accountable for training, you can measure. Well, you you know, you said you've done all this training. Well, okay, well, in that case, you should have got you know a bit faster, a bit lot whatever you were trying to work on. I think it's allowed as kids get older, it's given them the freedom to travel independently. And and that, you know, if you're if you're a parent of more than one child and you are working, you you know, sometimes that being able to sort of help, you know, as they as they get into the teenures, that has been a massive uh help. I think it can provide inspiration about what is possible uh and a range of role models. I think incidentally for boys, um aside of the sort of toxic influencers, there are lots, you know, football role models. I'm not saying they're perfect in the sense that they that they're you know they they there are there may be things that we are hesitant about, but ultimately, why are they good at football? Why are they playing in the Champions League final? Because they've worked, they they've got a talent and they worked at it. Girls' role models are are not quite the same. They they and and this this sort of mirrors a bit of if you think about school environment, the most popular boy in school is often the captain of the football team, or he's in a band, or he's funny. The most popular girl in the in school is usually the you know, the pretty one, the one who dresses well, the one who has loads of social media followings. That the captain of the netball team or the football team doesn't usually kind of make it up there, and that is something that we have to change. But if if you can get girls and boys, if you can help them follow really cool people, that's massively inspiring. So, you know, I I think we we have to embrace that and um and and use it, you know. It can measure sleep, it can measure your, you know, you don't get obsessed with it, but for sure there are lots of pros.

Speaker 1 12:45

Yeah, absolutely. And and you you've opened up a the whole world there. I've scribbled about 20 things in about the last two minutes of what you said, because you and I already have talked a lot um offline about about context. And I think again, there you and this is for parents who've listened to this show before, you know, we also hear banded around the world that comparison is the thief of joy. Well, when we're talking talented young people, no, no, not in all cases. It's the it's the healthy use of comparison. And if your children are going on to maybe look at a role model, if they're going on to watch clips, if they're looking at things that they've taken the decision to look at, that they're looking to copy and paste, maybe bring into their own performances, there is nothing wrong with that healthy use of comparison, and their ability to go and um self-evaluate, analyse their previous matches is important. We know one of the key psychological traits in developing excellence amongst young performers is their ability to talk and evaluate their performance, and technology um is helping them to do that. If they keep their clips of their best moments, things that they're doing well, those days when they're struggling, those days when they're lacking motivation, those days when we need to reaffirm with them that they've got this, that they can do it well, they can maybe use that highlight reel in a really positive, in a positive way. And I think that role modelling piece is important as well. If these young people are following, you know, certain role models or ones that could have a positive influence, it can be huge for young people in how they see the world. Beth, you summon your own.

Speaker 14:37

When you said that then, I think you really hit the nail on the head then about comparing with yourself. That that's you use the clips of really cool people that you're trying. I can't, whatever it is, I I can't cross my left foot very well. What start comparing how you are getting better, not anyone else on the picture looking at me. So that that self-comparison is a really good way of of measuring progress rather than comparing with someone else when you you know you you can't you've got no idea what's going on or what you know they're they're the various sort of dynamics of that person, just that self-comparison from to it in relation to measuring progress, I think is a really good thing.

Speaker 1 15:18

Yeah, absolutely huge. Uh uh live session with some young athletes last month, uh a couple of months ago. Now, a 14-year-old said to me, said, Gordon, comparison's really good for me when I compare myself to six months ago. Yeah, I mean, I could have gone and give him a hug. What an answer for a 14-year-old to come out with. I thought that is absolutely fantastic. So everything does have to be um, I guess, context-specific. You've talked about as a pro that actually it can measure the quality of sleep. Technology's also enhanced some of the data that we can see around performance. So we're not saying, um, as we said at the beginning, that the that this is all negative around technology technology. It's definitely enhancing uh performance. But if we look at sleep, for an example, because we are going to talk about the cons of technology as well, then obviously that leads quite nicely because sleep can be affected if sometimes we're not using technology in the right way. So let's have a look at some of the negatives, Beth, based around performance, though, not just based around general bad stuff, but let's talk about how it hinders performance.

Speaker 16:28

Well, okay, if we start with that then, if we start with sleep, I think the and and I often say this to parents when you're talking about trying to regulate the amount of time your child spends online, start with what you need to put in. So, what what is the evidence so strong that you need to put in? So sleep is up. So you don't get kids in iron, you need to sleep two hours like that. They don't tend to say that because they know the evidence is there. So, yes, sleep. Does it does it detract from sleep? Yes, no, maybe. Um, you know, how you're eating and what you're eating. So we know that sometimes when you eat mindlessly in front of the TV, you're not as careful with with you know that what you're actually you know, when you full, when you're not full, what sort of stuff are you eating? So so that you know, uh diet, you know, exercise, of course, they these kids are very active, and but you know, might it be that they it is impacting how they ri recover? So they come in and they plonk themselves in front of the TV instead of maybe you know doing a bit of reheating, sort of stretching out and have a shower straight away, whatever those sorts of things are. Relationships, right? We know that it impacts the quality of relationships, and this is where it comes down to us as well. You know, that that when when you I think Jamie Rednapp's quote was about when his child got in the car and he might just went straight on his phone, which can be frustrating, but I think adults also do that. The kids get in, you say, How is your day, darling? And then you're just you know looking at your your your work usually or you know, whatever it is. So I think start off by asking them how does your tech um impact your sleep, your diet, your your activity, um, and your quality of relationships. And they'll probably say, Well, you're always on your phone and my fine, but they're thinking about it. So I think that's the first one. I think the second thing, the idea of influences we we spoke about, you know, as a positive thing. Of course, it can also be a negative thing if they are getting sucked in and sometimes doing things that are, you know, just because the messages are powerful and influential doesn't mean that they're right for their sport or their body for that matter. You often see um, you know, every athlete looks different, they have different body mass, they have different makeup, and and therefore it's unlikely that if you just follow some influencer that it's going to be specific enough for you. So that can be a concern. And spending your money is another, you know, be careful there, you're not buying, you know, this gadget and that one. That I think the other thing that the kids I speak to a lot about talk about is the attention and focus. They struggle to um, because we know everyone's attention is shrinking. I think it's for 43 seconds, I think it is, is the average before before we switch uh you know attention to something else. Now that's not so much of an issue in the game. You don't often see players on the pitch switching attention, but it might be um an issue when you know if the coach is talking about something or they're doing the boring, hard work grafting stuff outside of the game. And and I think all parents will see this because even my my my my son loves like his football. But when I see him, you know, as soon as he'll go around someone's house and they're playing FIFA, and then it's a really nice day, and they could be in the garden as well. That the FIFA is pretty powerful, like you know, you're thinking, wow, if this was if this was not if this was how it the option all the time, I'm not sure that it wouldn't, you know, tip the balance. And I often say to him, Look, you know, Messi didn't become messy playing Fortnite, right? So, you know, being mindful of that. And I once remember when I was um teaching P, I had a year 11 football team, and I um I I couldn't they they were all dropping out, I couldn't get a team, and it was really embarrassing. If I've ever had to ring, you know, the the the the teacher near the school, I said, I'm really sorry, I I can't fulfil this fixture. I couldn't understand eventually the captain sheepishly came in. He's like, Oh yeah, sorry, miss, and and uh he said I would have played, but if if Fortnite had just come out with this new game, that that week I was just I couldn't believe it. And I that's a real case of where it is taking it is taking away from the things that they usually do and is becoming more powerful. Now we had a good chat about it, and he he knew this wasn't cool because he said it, yeah, he said it's it's so compelling or miss. He said it just gets you, and then everyone else is playing, and it you know, it it so that I think is a is a key issue. And and then of course the underregulation means there is exposure to content and influences, and I think maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later. We talk about injuries and so on. But um, I think if we if we looked at those four issues, detracting from the things that are good from you, attention and focus, uh, you know, under regulation and exposure that you probably don't want, uh um, and then yeah, influencing in in the wrong way.

Speaker 1 21:07

Yeah, I mean again, scribbling away here, um, wasn't there something in that that report around, you know, you talk about technology use, and I think you mentioned to me something around you know, children on devices looking down at devices on the way to games. Was there some data around peripheral responsibility? Yeah, well, a little bit of data, peripheral vision?

Speaker 21:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Well, when you are, if you think about these kids, they are trying to perform at the highest possible level. So if there's loads of little things that you do to that, it's not just what you do on the pitch, it's kind of beyond what they do on the on the 90 doing the 90 minutes. And on the way to the game, if you think about if you're narrowing your focus and you're looking down, no matter what they're looking at, right? You know, it could be something that troubles them or bothers them, or they they see a clip of somebody who's got selected above them. But even if they're just looking at uh, you know, if they're just gaming, Um the it it is narrowing their perception of it. So when they come to look up to a field where they need a much broader, it it's going to have an impact. But to be fair to the kids, they're never really told that. I well, uh my I've never been told on the way to the match, look up or listen to music, whatever, but don't just sort of look down and down.

Speaker 1 22:19

But I tell you what we will have noticed as people who've been in education as PE teachers and coaches is when teams arrive off a bus looking like zombies because their heads have been down. I know there's a there's a travelling element, but what we've probably seen is some aspects of that behaviour. We just haven't been able to back it up with with some of the data like like we're we've maybe talked about there. Um the the one for me I talk to parents about and the kids actually about their choices is that you know, on the way to games, is it a good idea that you have your messaging function on? Which is a bit similar to you saying you look at your Instagram feed, you know, you're on your way to a game, um, you're happy, you're thinking about your game, your performance, and then somebody, you maybe your partner breaks up with you, like you say somebody says something negative, another part of your life, and you're turning up at a game, you're more worried about that than the actual competition uh that you're about to take part in. And I say to the kids, Well, guys, hey, we've got a choice here, haven't we? Do uh are the positives outweighing the benefits of having that particular function on on the way to the game? And all the stuff that we're talking about here, you know, ultimately boils down to choices. Yeah. But I think they're only gonna make better choices if they understand that it potentially could be hindering what they're trying to do. They're not gonna do it just because we've suddenly come up with a great idea.

Speaker 23:50

No, they're not, and they have to because teenagers are particularly, you know what, when they're when they're under 10, fine, you have a bit more control of that. But when they get older, it is different for every job. Like for some kids, Instagram's not even a thing. Like, you know, some boys are not even bothered about Instagram. So if you start banging on about Instagram, they're gonna be like, Oh, I don't even care about you, I don't even what I don't even got it, you know. So you have to ask them, right, look at what you do on the way to the game, and we're gonna we'll we'll we'll trial and error, cause and effect. How do how did that? Did you feel how did you feel when you got out of the car on or out of the train in terms of buzzing and ready and up for it? Okay, and then next week we'll try, get them to try it. Because they if you tell them, they won't listen anyway. So get them to see, uh, do you feel better now after that? And it's the same if if you if if your kid is coming from school even and they've had a bit of a rubbish day and they've you and say, Okay, well, or they're angry and they've they're arguing with their sibling, and you say, Okay, just do me a favor, just take the dog for a quick walk. And then when they come back, you say, How do you feel now? And nine times out of ten, you feel better after you've just had some fresh air and some space, and they'll say, Yeah, I actually do feel a bit better now. Fine, done. So they are, and then hopefully they will use that as a technique in future when they're having sort of stressful times or whatever else. So it's about them working out what is it for them, cause and effect.

Speaker 1 25:06

Yeah, and look, those conversations I think are really, really powerful because if we're wanting them to make good choices, we've got to then be really good at celebrating those good choices with them, the decisions that they make, but also helping them see that those choices actually led to a really positive outcome for them. Because, as you say, you know, young performers were trying to get them to upgrade their better habits all the time and discard some of the ones that that maybe aren't that helpful. Um, I want to talk a little bit about cause and effect because, you know, again, you get banded round, all young people quite rightly should have a choice and a voice in in their journey and and all that they do, and we we both agree on that. However, there are potential consequences um to some of those choices, as everything we do, like you say, has a cause and effect. Um, do you think this is key in linking this to their performance outcomes in supporting the positive behaviours with technology? That we also have to do that bit. We can't just say, oh, well, yeah, you've got a choice and a voice, and actually you just use that choice and a voice and do what the hell you want. Actually, hang on. We need to be sitting and having a chat about some potential consequences, potentially around performance, and how does this link together?

Speaker 26:27

Okay, yes, I do. I so the first thing I think sometimes what we don't do as teachers, uh, as parents, is we don't teach them much about how their brain development impacts how they think and feel and behave. It's certainly not in teacher training, and yet it's the main thing that that influences what you see, how they learn. So if they understand some key things about their brain during this period, so they understand that A, peer influence is super really, really powerful, really important in it drive, that helps them understand why sometimes they might do silly things in front of friends or feel embarrassed when you turn up, but you know, breathing as a parent, to be honest, as you get older. If they understand that it that when they're at this time, their brain is so malleable. So the neurons that fire together, wire together, it they like they value maybe their time a little bit more. If they understand that they can be more impulsive in front of friends because the emotional part of their brain, the amygdala and the limbic system, is more developed than their sort of prefrontal cortex that are, you know, is sort of about sensible, rational thinking. So they almost, I mean, I'm oversimplifying this a bit, but like a break in an accelerator. If they realize that, yeah, okay, when I'm with my friends, I like I'm more likely to take emotional decisions and sensible ones that might be best for my performance the next day, they can then backtrack from that. So, for example, if you've got um you're a big game tomorrow and a big training session tomorrow, um, and you know you're gonna out after school with your friends, you know that if you understand that about your brain, you know that you're more likely to say, Yeah, come on, I'll I'll we'll stay up later or let's get a curry the night before, whatever else, because you're with your friends and that's and it's gonna be difficult for you to say, oh no, actually, I've got a game tomorrow and I want to get an early night. And so if you know that, you can almost pre-plan, right? Actually, you know, mum, do us a favor, can you come pick me up early? Because I know that I'm gonna you you take you understand that you'll be more influenced to make better choices for your, you know, your sport, because it's hard for sporty kids because they're often in an environment where not everyone is in that board, so they're making sacrifices, they're gonna have to, you know, not go to certain parties or go to bed earlier than others. But if they understand, you know, ways that how their brain works, that can help them. I think the idea of giving them a choice and a voice. I remember in that report I interviewed an amazing lady called Sally, Doctor, Sally Needham, um, and she uh, you know, works with with Premier League footballers and and uh uh championships footballers and international uh footballers. And when they would say to her, you know, actually, I think my sleep is good, I think it's fine, I don't need, you know, if they're saying um I can stay up late, I don't need X amount of sleep, she would always say to them, Okay, cool, why don't you track it and and see? Because it's not just the length of time you're in bed, it's actually that how you know how high quality is that are you going through all the various stages that you need to have? And then they would say, All right, yeah, I'll try it, and then they could have the conversation with their own data, they're like, Oh, actually, yeah, you I did actually wake up three times and went, you know, whatever, whatever it was. So I think giving them they do have to have the choice, particularly as they become older teenagers. You they otherwise what will happen is they'll say, Yeah, yeah, fine, I'll do it, and they don't do it, and it's not a habit anyway. So, but if you can sort of help catch, how are you gonna see? They'll say, I need my phone in my bedroom, right? It's fine. I don't check it in the night anyway, fine. Say, okay, cool, let's just have a look. Um, have a look, what it, you know, if they if they track their sleep, if they say, Well, why don't you put the phone on the other side of the room? So if you get go get go to the loo in the middle of the night, you're not tempted to check it, whatever else it is. And then for you to also say to them, have the sort of humility to say, Do you know actually, I probably I have my phone next to me at night as well. Maybe tell you what, I'll have I'll I'll I'll put it the other side of the room as well, and we'll have a chat about it then, because then it's not you being the sort of superior, because actually sleep is important for everybody. So you can't say to your kid, oh, it's really important that you sleep and don't get interrupted, and then they come into you and night and you're there on your phone. So is it about modelling as well?

Speaker 1 30:31

Yeah, absolutely. And look, again, that that's that's brilliant to hear because that's something we again we we touch on in sessions that actually we have to role model. We can't come in in an evening and say, actually, no, we're not going to be on technology if we're sat there scrolling in front of them and we've taken it off them. And a lot of our families now involved in performance sport uh are getting better at setting some routines, but they're all having to do it, you know, getting a time at night where they're all docking their devices in the sitting room. Um, and I think that actually leads on to actually probably what is a nice part of performance as well is a lot of teenage parents in particular are coming back to us and saying, Do you know what, Gordon? We're also having the best chats with our kids in that late period at night. It fits with the body clock. Oh, they come alive, then it doesn't fit with it doesn't fit with our body clock, but it it fits with theirs.

Speaker 31:27

Yeah, it does, it does.

Speaker 1 31:28

But but those conversations have only really started to happen for people more when the distractions have been taken away. So people are coming back saying, This is great, everyone in the house sleeping a little bit better. We've had conversations about this, we're all docking it together, we're all in it together, you know, having a really positive impact. So I think our role modelling, you know, as you say, is absolutely key.

Speaker 31:52

Um it doesn't have to be you don't have to have the same rules if you're working from home or you're working, it might be that you do have to work at night because you've taken off an hour to make the tea, whatever else. That's fine. Just be what you're trying to model to them is about intentions. I'm intending, I have to work tonight. So I'm going into my I'm gonna talk I am going to work. That's different to sitting talking to them and then just getting distracted and you know, lose. You're not choosing then, it's choosing. So you're trying to get across to them. You choose, you make your time. What time do you think is it in? How long do you need a new work? Right. And then when you switch it off and we're watching TV together, let's do that. And let's all, if you're watching, you know, you're watching the match, you watch the Champions League semi-final the other day. We don't have the phones in there because it's too tempting. Or why am I setting myself up? And I say this some look, it's not this idea of willpower, I think, can be really and motivation can be really divisive because if you set yourself up, it's like, oh, you know, my my uh you know, Mrs. Kerr, she's a good girl, you know, she wouldn't I trust her. These sorts of words are really damaging, I think, because you've got an industry there in terms of the attention economy that generates, I think in last year, $853 billion right in global net advertising revenue in one year. Um, so why would you why on earth would I be able to just resist my phone there? It's it's designed to pull me in. So if I'm watching a Champions League fan with my kids, watch it. Put the phone in the other room, check it a half time if there's something fine, but you don't sort of set yourself up to to fail. If I want to eat healthily and and you know feel fit, I don't sit on my desk with a huge box of chocolate and a glass of wine and say I'm gonna just you know ignore them or why why would I do that? I'd put them in the other room until I'm ready to have them. And it's the same thing with the phone. So taking the onus away from them being weak to actually no, no, the only way you you kind of get through this is that you put boundaries in place. You you put a seatbelt on when you're in the car because you know it's really powerful. Other cars influence you. So it's just about them understanding their brain and understanding the way that technology has been designed is to hijack their attention. Don't fight it, you know, be smart about how you how you kind of put those rules and intentionality back in.

Speaker 1 34:11

Yeah, brilliant. I mean, I think we we've touched a lot on you know, parent boundaries, children at home. Let's just go to the sports organizations and coaches a little bit here, their understanding the boundaries they're putting in. And one of the big things for me is uh I think it's a really good story to explain this. One of the organizations we work very explicitly clear on their use of phones and devices in their environment. The kids, when they go in in the morning, they drop their technology into the box and at the end of the day. Yeah, at the end of the day, they collect it. And there's a number of sports that operate, this is a number of schools that operate this, and they're very clear that they want their kids, they understand that it could have a negative influence, they want them to be immersed in the environment, they want them to speak to people, they want them to take everything in, and at the end of the day, they're handed back. Now, some of the kids in these environments have been incredible. Once those routines are in place, they go looking for the box. Um, we think that it this can't be changed around, but it potentially can. However, the flip side of that, let's take another sport. Um, this is a real story again from the world of gymnastics. Getting prepared for a world junior championship uh a couple of weeks away. Um, a coach is running a training session, and in the middle of the training session, the girl goes and looks at her phone, not to look at clips, not to do any form of enhancing performance. The coach confronts her about her use of device during that slot, and the reply that he got was, you can't tell me not to be on my device, uh, I'm entitled to look at it. Now, if that girl had said that to me, I would have been very clear on sorry, you're an international athlete. This is not what we do in this environment, and this is why. That didn't happen, that conversation. But I know when you and I spoke about this offline, it shows the importance of boundaries being set within an organization because that second story could have been avoided if it had been explicitly clear about how, when, and why we were going to be using the technology in that environment. And I know that we've also talked about um sports tours. You know, I used to take lots of teams away and I used to be really clear on well, there's no way we're having devices in the foyer of a hotel with everybody walking past. We're going to talk to people and and have a look at what's going on. Likewise, people going all around the world getting to see some amazing things. And coaches are coming back and saying they've missed half of them because they've been more concerned about what's in front of them. Well, that's wrong. That's on us, that's the adults, that's the leadership, that's the programmes. What are your thoughts on organisations, coaches? Just to I know we could talk about this all day. Just some things to consider about what they're putting in place to aid performance as well.

Speaker 37:18

Yeah, I uh that's such a powerful kind of introduction to this question because I think in an industry where you are dealing with really, really fine margins to be go from good to to great, uh, as to Dave Berth once said, What why would you leave this to chance? So you don't you the kids know exactly what they need to wear, what the what you know that what they're eating, you know, what the warm-up looks like, what the stretch is like, what the free kick is like, what whatever it is. Why would you leave this area to chance and then and then risk not only it detracting from performance, but in that instance you just talked about, it causes, you know, that they're angry, they're angry with you, you then have damaged that the relationship has broken down. You are too totally entitled as a coach of a team or a club to say, right, these are the rules in our club. That girl could have also said, Well, I'm entitled to drink, you know, a red bull. I'm entitled to drink it. I doubt she would have said that because I imagine that that they would have said what sort of drinks they would want them to drink, water and whatever they they've chosen. Um, so I think having clarity, not so you're thinking, I'm not leaving it to chance. I'm gonna be clear for for two reasons. One, because it actually takes the pressure off the kids. If if we don't have clear rules, then I'm asking every child to make a judgment against this super powerful peer-influence brain that is driving their behavior. You're not that's not fair, it's not fair on them. Make it clear and and honestly have faith, even though they might, you know, it might take a bit of getting used to, they're not hardcore smokers that have been smoking for 50 years. It's not that sort of habit. If you say, on this school trip, on this trip, there's no forms, you they will be fine and they will get so much more out of it. But it does need every club on coach to have a bit of time thinking through what it is. It might be that you you say, Okay, you can have your phones between 5 and 6 p.m. to call home if you're on a tour. Fine. That's simple, that's straightforward. Take it back in, and it and it's important to do the consequences. If we find that you've handed in a burner phone or a knock it or whatever else, um, you'll be sent home and your parents will have to come and get you at their cost. And you say that very clearly, then everybody knows where they are. So I think really important that that clubs kind of think of this and and takes the pressure off them, understanding what their brains are like, make it a level playing field, and then you can really focus on optimizing performance. But if you do it during the map during the game, you'll get things. Well, I'm checking my mum might be ill, or that you get all sorts of emotional things. Whereas if you say beforehand, right, if there are any reasons that handing your phone in is going to be difficult, please come and talk to us and we can understand and you know work work around that. If sometimes you do have extenuating certain, you can work that one-on-one, but just be clear because it leaves you in such a uh vulnerable position and sometimes puts in in sort of safeguarding issues with kids taking four, you just make it easy for yourself, get them just focusing in on the you know, being an elite sports person in that environment.

Speaker 1 40:29

Yeah, absolutely. And and look, I don't know why we're so scared to engage and articulate why we decide what we choose to do in our environment. As you say, we're in many ways, we're really powerful. This is what we do here. We're not interested in what somebody else is doing round the corner. Based on our knowledge, experience, and expertise within this building, we know that this may be one way of going about it to optimize performance. Doesn't mean we're always going to get it right either, but actually we're being consistent in the policing of it. It's been thought out, we've talked about it, we've looked at it, we've evaluated it, and we're all then making potentially good choices.

Speaker 41:14

Now, I'm conscious can I just say on one other thing I was thinking then, I think the other thing is important for clubs too is uh to make clear is if they say to their kid, that their players rather early on in the start, look, we appreciate that all of social media, tech gaming, all of this is very cleverly designed in in line with your brain tensor. So if you ever fight feel that your tech use is not really supporting your performance development, come and talk to us, we'll help you. No, we're not gonna release you because you've omitted. We're actually because I think there's a fear sometimes that they think, oh, I can't say anything. Um, even I know I was up too late because I but I and I want help. But if I tell my mum she's gonna throw the phone out and that's awful because it connects with all my friends, I I don't want to get rid of it, but I do need a bit of help. Make it clear that that is not, you know, that you will support them through that and help them because they will just assume otherwise it's gonna lead to you know a damning report and then they'd be off.

Speaker 1 42:13

Yeah, and I and I think that's I mean, one of the big things for me, I'm not a huge fan of codes of conduct, I'm not a huge fan of explicit things like that, because I would rather focus on behaviours, like you say, but also as part of those behaviours, I would value honesty and and humility just as much as some of the things that we're trying to embed. Um, and I think you're right there because what we don't want to do is be yes, which we are putting boundaries in place, yes, we're trying to enforce it, but actually, if they get broken a little bit, we've also got to be really clever how we manage that moment and the environment we're creating for young players, like you say, to do feel safe enough to come forward and say, you know, I'm struggling a bit a bit with this. And we've seen that, haven't we, around the world with people who finally been brave enough come forward and say actually, you know, I'm struggling a bit with my gambling or it's after they've uh at the end of their careers, though, isn't it?

Speaker 43:10

You know, not at the beginning.

Speaker 1 43:11

Yeah, absolutely. And and I think we can we can get that we can make these conversations part and parcel of what we do. We know what potentially can happen and what's coming, but let's talk about it long in advance of it. Um, as you say, becoming a major, major issue. Um, now I'm gonna sort of move this on a little bit as it's about to probably be the longest episode that we've ever recorded. That doesn't surprise me at all, Beth. Um, one of the hot topics at the moment is parents who run social media accounts for their children. I do have my own views on this. I think it's a really complex issue because people have different reasons for doing it. It is really divisive. What are your thoughts, gut feelings as someone who's got kids, you've been involved in education, you've doing this work around performance and technology. What are you thinking?

Speaker 44:13

Okay, I think it's important to say, first of all, this comes from a good place, right? Parents are trying to do everything they can to support their child on this journey, number one. Um, they are, you know, I said I work with number one fan club, they are their child's biggest fan, right? They're trying to do and and collect the evidence they need. They know that if the child's released at some point, a profile reel might be helpful. So they are they're doing it from a good place. But I think some key questions maybe to think through, right? Number one, right? Why are you doing it? Now, if it is, as I just mentioned, to get a good player profile reel, is social media the best place to do that? Would it be better for you to have a really good huddle clip collection and save them ready privately so that you've you've got you know you've got them ready if they if it moves and and it's that proper clips rather than sort of showy social media stuff? I think secondly, think what is it actually teaching your child? So it's teaching them straight away to compare with other people, not themselves, it's driving them to build social media habits, checking, spending precious time, you know, watching it, making it look good, and not doing the hardcraft in the in you know, outside, you know, what's exposing your child to, we talked about briefly. Uh, it how is it gonna help their journey? So, you know, think really carefully why you're doing it and what's it teaching your child? That's that's the child. Number two, is it gonna influence you know, your the scouts and coaches and so on? I think football elite sport across the board is is ultimately a meritocracy. Um, that and then and I think sometimes from speaking to lots of coaches, there's a bit of a sense that actually empty vessels make the most noise. You know, the ones who bombard you with clips and they're all over social media, they're actually too busy focusing on the showy front facing. We all know you can make things look great. You know, I could I could take a game that my my my daughter, my son played and you know, show 30 seconds. It looks like they had a worldie, but actually they were appalling the rest of the game. So I think they're not focusing on the key drivers. And I think one one it was an interesting quote from a uh college recruiter in in America looking at high high looking at um players coming into the college system there, and he said, more players lose opportunities because of social media than gain them. So I think you know, thinking about that is thing, and then finally, I think what is it doing for you? You know, how much time are you doing? Is it stressful for you? Are you spending time fiddling around, getting the clips looking all good rather than actually talking to your kids and having a giggle and a laugh with them? So valuing your own time. So I think look, if you decide you want to set one up and continue with it, just be really intentional about how much time do you want to spend managing it? Am I just, you know, keeping it up there fine? Is it actually an opportunity for a super powerful lesson for for your child? Um, so yes, unsurprisingly, I don't have social media accounts for my for my kids because I just don't think on balance that it that it's gonna help them. But having good clip huddle clips, you know, I wish I would have done that bit better. I hadn't really even that would have been helpful. So I had a good reel of proper clips that show that that is in a in a format that all clubs recognise. You send the player profile across, you don't send links to their Instagram account. That's what you send over. Put your energy into making that look good.

Speaker 1 47:30

Yeah, and I think there's obviously issues that we know from an educational perspective as well, is you know, when kids get to an age when they're actually able to have these social media accounts, are they going to be pleased looking back at what you've actually posted? And then you start linking that to, you know, we all want to support our kids to have healthy identities, and what messages are we sending them at the younger stages that actually your value and self-worth is just in whether you played particularly well at the weekend? And yes, that can be important, of course it can, but there's also that that wider piece around that again. I think that's probably a topic um in itself. Uh, so final question, Beth. This came in uh direct from a a parent, so this sums it up beautifully, I think, to finish off. How will the way my child interacts with technology impact the likelihood that they will have a successful career in football or their chosen sport and how can I help them? It's all so overwhelming.

Speaker 48:32

Well, as again, they're in good company. I think we all sort of feel like that. I think I would reframe the question first of all to look at how will it impact the likelihood that they will have a fulfilled life with sport continuing to be a key part of it. And I say that first because it is very easy to get kind of sucked away, and it's important to keep coming back to this question: why does my child play football, athletics, tennis? So why do they play it and why do I want them to keep doing that? And and the answer should always be because they love it, because actually having a love for sport and nurturing a talent and a team or whatever is brilliant for skill for to nurture skills, and that'll that'll help them thrive in any industry. And and if they want to make it their career, how can you help them make those little microhabits that will set them up for life? You know, and if you think the average child, the average 12-year-old spends 35 hours a week on their smartphone at the age of 12, so they'll have clocked up 10,000 hours, that magic number that make you a kind of world class within about five years. So that level of engagement will shape your child, and it can feel a bit overwhelming. So I think once you've got in your head of why do why are they doing that and that the right reasons, if you think of it, rather than thinking about how you can help your child be a successful, you know, elite athlete, think about instead, I want you to think of a great day at the beach with your child, with your family, and think about what was it that made that day really good. So we're looking at key principles. It wasn't an accident that it went well. So, number one, you were informed. You had you knew what the beach was like, you knew it wasn't a beach for dogs, or you knew it didn't have you know riptides in it. You were informed and you were in charge. So you were the one who who controlled the things that that that made it there. It didn't matter what the family next door did, um, you know, you it was you that was in charge, and you understood that the sea that particularly was super powerful in parts, but really lovely in other parts. So you you had that kind of idea of respect and caution at the same time. Secondly, you looked at your child through their developmental age. If they are seven or eight, it is different if they're 17 or 18. So really understanding how their brain development is going to influence how they think and feel and behave. If you're on a beach and you've got a six-year-old, you turn your back, they'll have gone because they'll have got distracted by your ball. But you kind of know that, so you don't tend to turn your back on a little one. You know, when they're older, they'll get swayed by other things, and then you can adapt your boundaries. So you don't put armbands on a 15-year-old, but you will say, You go between these two flags, I have to be able to see you, whatever it is. So that idea of boundaries, the idea of communication, that's going to be your best friend to help them through all this. So talking to them about tech, it can feel overwhelming, of course, because it changes all the time. But if you speak to them, say, look, tell me a bit about you know what is it about this app that's so good, help them get them to teach you, role model it. If you're on a beach, you don't run on the beach with no clothes on, and therefore you hope your teenager won't do the same. So if you sort of take those ideas and apply them to the online world, and then I think that can just demystify it. Sometimes I think we get bogged down into the detail of technology and this app and that app and adolescence, the Netflix series, and panic, and and actually thinking about no, wait a minute, what do I want for my child? What are the values I want for them? How old are they? How can I help them? And what boundaries can I put in place to help them do this? So I'm not relying on them to have this sort of idea of willpower. And let's talk to them. I'll just keep talking to them and keep having one. And I think you can apply those to both.

Speaker 1 52:18

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe if we do some of those, it won't be quite as overwhelming as you say for the vast majority of us uh who are all living and and breathing this as we speak. Uh Beth, absolute privilege uh to have you on the Parents in Sport podcast. I am sure we will pick this conversation up again uh to discuss further. Certainly a hot topic. Really hope um our listeners have enjoyed this episode. Um, but thank you for your incredible contributions to this topic.

Speaker 52:49

It was and I would just leave parents with thinking, it is really hard. It is, I am not, it is a it is really difficult. And just accept I always think perfect is the enemy of good. So if you do, and I would even say, okay, if you're doing good enough, okay, you know, your child will be just fine.

Speaker 1 53:05

Brilliant. What a lovely way to end the episode. Thank you.

Speaker 53:09

Thanks, Gordon. Bye.

Speaker 1 53:11

Thank you for listening. Check it out at parentinsport.co.uk