Drop the Struggle - 'A conversation with Dr Alison Maitland and Jenna Ashford'

In this episode Dr.Alison Maitland and Jenna Ashford join Gordon MacLelland to discuss their book 'Drop the Struggle' and how understanding their approach of using 'Acceptance and Commitment Therapy' may help us as sporting parents to help support our young people to fulfil their potential both in and out of their sport.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• The writing of 'Drop the Struggle' and the motivations behind writing the book
• Not falling into the trap of a one size fits all approach for every child
• Helping our children understand that we cannot control our thoughts and feelings but we can control how we act and respond
• The danger of using phrases such as 'Don't cry, Don't be nervous'
• Using open questions and co-collaborating with our children around our role in supporting them
• Encouraging our children to share what they are thinking and feeling
• The importance of parental role modelling in sharing our own thoughts and feelings
• Being conscious of not labelling our children
• Creating our own narratives of success, failure and disappointment
• The inevitabilities of sport, accepting them ourselves, and helping our children learn to accept and work with them
• The power of being able to listen
• Helping our children acknowledge their emotion but then focus on the actions that follow

Dr Alison Maitland is an experienced Health Professions Council registered and BASES accredited Sport Psychologist. She has a PhD in elite sport and uses her expertise in human performance in a wide range of settings in sport and businesses around the world. Not only has she helped elite athletes achieve World Championship titles and Olympic success, but she has a love and proven track record of supporting athletes and coaches taking the first step along their sporting journey. She continues to combine her use of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in a sports context, with running a business equipping women in FTSE 250 businesses to lead unapologetic lives.

Jenna is a Chartered Sport & Exercise Psychologist. She has a broad range of experience working with athletes from many different sports, from elite level to school sport. She was part of the team of psychologists at the Football Association who developed the high performance culture within England Football teams. Aside from her work in sport, she is a performance consultant in business, an executive coach and has extensive experience coaching leaders across many different sectors.

Additional Reading

The stories athletes tell themselves

Transactional or Transformational – What type of sporting parent do you think your child wants you to be?

Transcript

Speaker 0:13

Welcome to season five of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by sports psychologists and authors, Dr. Alison Maitland and Jenna Ashford. Thank you both for joining us on the show. That's great to be here, Gordon. Yeah, I'm really excited about this one because I think today's topic helps all of us. Um having read your latest book to look at it to I guess help the work that we're doing. I then found myself really looking at it myself and thinking, oh my goodness, I could have done with this uh at numerous points um over the last over the last few years. But I just want to start by um allowing our listeners to find out a little bit more about yourselves. So um Alison, can you just tell us uh a little bit more about you and your background?

Speaker 2 1:05

Uh yeah, I always say I've got a bit of a Mongol background actually. I've got a career in in business in human resources, and then the last 20 odd years. You can't see me on on the on here, but I'm old enough to have done another 20 years of working as a sports psychologist in a range of um both businesses, so bringing sport to business, but also with some sports teams. So netball's an area working a lot, rowing um and and other sports as well.

Speaker 1:31

Fantastic, Jana.

Speaker 1 1:34

Awesome. So yeah, I was uh I sort of started out in sport really. So hockey was my sport. Um, played played a lot of hockey, and I suppose through my experiences there, I became really interested in in psychology, in the role that mindset played in in sort of performing at your best and enjoying your sport as well. So um went on to study sports psychology, and um I worked with Allison in in business, taking some of those lessons from sport and psychology into sort of organizations, um, and obviously work with sports people from all different sports, working in education as well. Um, and I suppose relevant to this podcast, I've just had a well, I say just had I've I've got a seven-month-old baby, so I'm just starting out on the the parenting uh journey as well.

Speaker 2:21

Yeah, but well, I mean, congratulations on that. You you'll certainly enjoy it, Jenna, because everything you know goes out of the window. So I I've got I've got two children, I live and breathe this every day, and I reckon I mess it up every single week when I talk to parents about what we should be doing. And I think you you can take some safety in that. There is absolutely no such thing uh as a perfect sports parent. So uh don't be too hard on yourself. Um, right, uh, let's get started. I want to talk about your uh book, Drop the Struggle. Uh Alison, tell us uh uh a little bit about it, you know, what were your motivations for writing it? Tell us uh about what it is and and who it's for.

Speaker 2 3:05

Thank you. Um the kind of the simple answer about motivation for is Jenna said to me, Shall we write a book? Um and I resisted for a little while. Um, but the the the the real answer is um we wrote a book because we both Jenna and I worked with an underpinning to our work as sports psychologists of something called acceptance and commitment therapy. And uh I certainly had felt like um until I found that as part of my practice as a sports psychologist, I'd always been sticking plasters on athletes. It felt like I'd I'd kind of got a solution that kind of stayed there for a bit, but they'd need another plaster after a while. And actually, working with acceptance and commitment is something that kind of gives a long-term solution for athletes and for coaches, and it's just great to be able to get that out there in the world through through writing it down in a book and and letting the rest of the world share what what Jenna and I know. So that was where it came from for me. Jenna, I don't know about you.

Speaker 1 4:04

Yeah, I think you know, pretty similar. I'd we I'd sort of come across Act and I suppose was using it a bit unknowingly in my own life and sport, and um and then started working with it um in my work as a sports psychologist and saw how impactful it was. And and you know, the the the thought came about, well, could we spread this a little bit further? Um so ACT acceptance and commitment therapies used a lot in sort of clinical settings, and and it's becoming more and more something that sports people are realizing can be transformative for them as well. So yeah, just wanted to get get word out there a little bit more about um about the fact that there's a different way, I suppose. There's a different way to do sports psychology, um, and uh hoping that it will help as many people as possible.

Speaker 4:47

Yeah, and I I think it, I mean, you look at the the topic and you read the book, and I think you're right. It's not it's certainly not mainstreaming in sports settings, but it it certainly makes a lot of sense, you know. I I think of talks you do with parents, and you know, you hear you know, phrases like, you know, on you listen to podcasts and you know, embrace failure. Um, I'm not a big fan of that concept. Whoever wants to embrace failure, I certainly don't as a as a person or as a sports parent, but I do like the acceptance and the normalizing of some of the things that that we see and go on. And I know that that this will be a big area of interest for parents because the most popular session we get asked to deliver is generally around, you know, how do we manage disappointment with our kids? How do we help them move on when things aren't working? And what can we do um to help support them? Um, Jenna, what were your biggest takeaways? Uh, do you think from sort of researching and and writing the book? And and certainly, you know, with your sports hat on, you know, as you were writing, you know, what did you, you know, what were your light bulb moments, I guess?

Speaker 1 6:00

Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. I think um what what the process of writing did for me, and I I think probably Alison as well, was just help to kind of consolidate a lot of the thoughts that I had in my mind. You know, our minds are just generally a kind of jumbled-up mixture of lots of different thoughts. And um, the process of writing meant that I had to, you know, think about how it all links together, how to get that across in a coherent way, which then of course helps my thoughts to become more coherent. It helps it's helped me in my sort of one-to-one sessions with with clients, um, you know, taking them on a bit more of a clearer journey, I suppose. Um, and in terms of, I mean, I think there's so many act involves a lot of exercises, metaphors, kind of um fun ways to approach your mind. Um, and there's there were so many that we we wanted to put in the book. Um, there's there's so many out there, and I suppose as we were doing it, Alison would share one that really worked for her, and I would think that doesn't work quite for me, and then I'd share one, and Alison wouldn't um you know, wouldn't think that would work for her. So it did definitely make me realize that there is no one right answer. I mean, I obviously knew that you know before, but it's just made it really clear that everybody's really different, and what I hope from this book is that you know people take one or two or three sort of key things from it that just change something for them, um, and recognizing that not everything works for everyone, and and that's okay.

Speaker 7:35

Yeah, I don't I think I mean I think it it's a it's a brilliant point you raised then. Sort of people who listen to this podcast and certainly listen to our work, they'll be jumping around in celebration with you that there isn't one size fits all, despite this narrative that we see peddled on media and people claiming that there is one only unique way. That that is certainly not the case, and I think that um the bits I liked in the book, I think you're right, is that you left it very open for people to look at it through their lens and apply, I guess, the theory to their lives, which I think is ultimately the key to all of it.

Speaker 1 8:15

Yeah, for sure. And I was thinking about the the parenting aspect as well, and how you know if you've got multiple children, something that might work for one of your children, you might think, well, that's uh you know, that's a guarantee to work for another one. And actually, you find that child is very different, and so maybe a different approach is needed. And at the heart of it is just understanding your child, isn't it? Or for us, understanding the client and and the person in front of us. So I think that's key to it as well.

Speaker 8:41

Yeah, and I th I think you're right. I mean, I've I've got two children and they are completely different. Um, some of the ways I have to give feedback and the timings of when I I'm able to do things and how I have to go about it um look very, very different. Um, thankfully, my daughter came second and she tells me how it's going to be and what approach I have to take. And, you know, it's fascinating. You know, I can't even talk to her about her sport in front of her mum or her brother. It's just uh it's just a no-go area. But she will talk very openly and honestly when it is just me and her. And if I want to be slightly critical or want to say something that I've got to say or feel like I need to say, she's got no issue with that in that environment. If I do it in the wrong place at the wrong time, however, well, we'll be setting off World War III.

Speaker 1 9:34

Yeah, really good, really good example. And and you know, I think that that demonstrates pretty well that just working out what works for your child is um is the key to it.

Speaker 9:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:46

Yeah, I was gonna say one of the things for me that was a light bob, and it again that came through the writing process between Jenna and I was how easily in sport and outside of sport too, but particularly in sport, we use the word negative, don't have negative thoughts. And we went backwards and forwards, Jenna. We realized as we read through our manuscript how often we'd use that term negative. And actually, you'll notice that's not in the book. We purposely have taken that out, recognizing that thoughts are just thoughts, feelings are just feelings. Again, we're so conditioned to think that you know, if we're sad or we're anxious, or you know, some of those emotions, they're negative emotions. And we've gone, no, that they're they're actually quite normal emotions in a sports setting. When they're normal in life too, but and in a sports setting, you know, when something's important to you and you you've got something that might be a bit difficult, or you, you know, you haven't done before or is important to you, you're going to have those thoughts, difficult thoughts, you're going to have difficult emotions come up. So that was a bit of a light bulb moment for me. Just realizing how often that would come out of our mouths or it came out in our writing. So again, as a parent, it's one I thought, oh, that's interesting, isn't it? I wonder how many times I have two grown-up children who've been through sport. Yeah, I wonder how many times I used that or yeah, got them to think that an emotion that they experienced was a negative one. So that was a light bulb moment for me in terms of um writing the book together with Jenna.

Speaker 11:16

Yeah, how how do you think we reframe that? I think I think sometimes we do think that, you know, if our children feel anxious or they're nervous or they're worked up, you know, that that doesn't have to be a negative because we know that that can lead us to performing, you know, even better at the sort of optimum state. Um are we having to work with our kids just like you do throughout the book about being able to separate what's real and what are thoughts? Is that ultimately at the heart of this?

Speaker 2 11:48

Yeah, I think also just loosening the notion that we think that we can control our thoughts or we think that we can control our emotions because we can't. You know, so if if we sat here and said, okay, let's just be silent for a moment and not think anything, I guarantee that we will be thinking something within a you know, 10 seconds, there'll be a thought popping in, like, oh, isn't this boring? Or oh, I can't do this, or you know, absurd. Yeah, suddenly, and it's the same with our emotions. If we think that we can still our body and not experience emotions, we can't. And it just really, that's why we've called the book Drop the Struggle to an extent, it just loosens that agenda of having to fight it. If if an emotion comes up, it comes up. If a thought comes up, it comes up. Don't have to label it, just have to notice it and decide what to do next. So to me, it's a really freeing way of being an athlete or parenting an athlete in that respect because we don't have to struggle with it any longer.

Speaker 12:55

Yeah, any thoughts, Jenna, from a uh, you know, from a I guess from a parental point of view on you know, we probably know our kids better than anybody else. We probably can see when they're maybe feeling certain things. Some are obviously better at hiding it than others. Uh, any thoughts on how we can sort of lean into those conversations, talk to them about it? Is it about giving them the space to talk and communicate well with us?

Speaker 1 13:26

I think it, I think it absolutely is. Yeah, I think I think there's a few things as Alison was talking there. I was thinking, you know, one one thing is just to become a little bit more conscious, and you don't want to be second-guessing yourself the whole time, but just become a little bit more conscious of maybe some of the phrases that you use. Don't be nervous is an absolute classic, and we all say it. And I, you know, I find myself, you know, saying to my little one, don't cry or don't be sad, or but but in doing that, I'm telling them that that is an is an emotion that they shouldn't be having or that they don't want to have, and that's sort of then reinforcing. And actually, like you say, if we just provide that space to go, how are you feeling? And they'd say nervous, and you'd say, Well, that's part of sport. And um, yeah, so the first thing is sort of just trying to catch ourselves when we're trying to deny an emotion, I suppose. Um, and then also like your example earlier, just finding those opportunities, and it might be, you know, in the car on the way to or back from a sports game, it might be actually the day later or even the week later, once that's child, once that child has had a time to process it. Um, it might be that the morning of an event, they hate talking about it and they just want to be distracted. It might be that they really enjoy a conversation to get their mind focused. So having that, and the thing I think that we don't do enough is have that conversation, you know, with your child about what would you like? You know, what does help? If I'm standing on the sideline, do you like encouragement? Do you like silence? You know, before in the car on the way there, do you like music or just having that conversation as to, and they might not know the answer straight away, it might take a little bit of time for them to figure it out, but just by asking that question, you then sort of open up that opportunity for them to go, actually, I've been thinking about it, and I think this would really help me. Um, so I think the power of questions and and open questions allowing the child to have a think and explore is is really powerful.

Speaker 15:24

Yeah, and I I think you've, you know, it's absolutely vital, isn't it? And that bit about working with our children is really important. It goes back to that bit that not everybody's the same. I mean, the car journey to and from competitions are a huge part of our work. You know, we've we've really sort of tried to drill into that. Um, but everybody's different, you know, get getting ready to go to competition. Some people may like silence, some people may like music on their playlists, some people may like to talk about the sport, some people may like to talk about anything other than the sport. And you've got to understand your kids. I guess what we don't want to end up in is the stage I ended up in with a group of athletes and parents. We did a workshop together where I asked a 15-year-old boy, what do you want from mum on your way to competition? And in front of this packed room, he said, quite honestly, I wish she wasn't there. Oh my goodness. Well, I'm stood at the front of this session. I'm thinking, how am I getting out of this one? I was getting hot under the collar and I was saying, There must be something good about mum. Um, and and luckily the boy said, Oh, yeah, best mum in the world the rest of the week. And what had become really apparent was that mum was turning on the ignition on the way to competition, and she just didn't shut up. Yeah, and it and it became so obvious to him that she was worked up, she was anxious, she was nervous, and she was, you know, putting all of those anxieties onto him, and it was beginning to have a negative impact on his performance. You know, they went away and the music's on now, and they don't talk about it, and they've agreed they're not going to talk for the first half an hour afterwards because he wants that time to process it. And then he said, But then, mum, I'll answer any questions that you've got. Now that's uh that's an individual tale, but that isn't going to be the same for everybody. Uh, what are your thoughts, Alison, around around some of the stuff Jan has set off there?

Speaker 2 17:25

Oh gosh, it takes me all sorts of places, actually. Um yeah, I I think sometimes in working with athletes, what I notice is the hardest thing is for them sometimes to be able to, and he sounds a remarkable young 15-year-old um young man, is to be able to verbalize what they're thinking. And sometimes that's the work I might do with an athlete for the first couple of sessions is can they notice and be able to say out loud and feel it's okay to say out loud what they're thinking and what they're feeling? And sometimes that's quite hard for them to. They go, I don't know what I'm thinking. It takes quite a lot of work sometimes to give them the space to label them to to enable them to be able to say, Yeah, actually, I'm thinking this and and this is what I need, or I'm feeling this, and and not feel ashamed that they're feeling something. So, as you said before, you know, that these thoughts come with sport, being nervous, being anxious, being worried that feeling sad, feeling ashamed that something's happened, feeling guilty that something's happened, you know, all of these emotions that we've said are negative, but being able to verbalize them. So, yeah, I'd say that's work that needs we need to do as parents is give them the space and just gently keep asking the question until they can verbalize it themselves.

Speaker 18:45

Yeah, do you think that's the key? I mean, I I I think you know, I always put myself out there for my own failings. I think for a lot of us, even being able to talk in the terms you're talking can be really difficult. And I think there'll be a lot of parents who maybe don't role model that as well and actually say it's all right to be nervous, it's all right to be upset, it's all right to be worked up so that it is normal because we don't. We tend to hold on to it to not to be Superman, but portray this image that we think we need to portray. There'll be a lot of parents who'll be listening, they'll be saying, Oh my goodness, I just won't be able to get anything out of my kids. You know, some say to me, you know, I asked them a question, and I'm lucky if I get a a grunt or how was that for you to was fine. And that's the end of the dialogue. And and and I know the open questions do it, but it can be really hard to establish that. Any thoughts on what we can do?

Speaker 2 19:42

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, one way is to engage the the the young person in different ways to verbalize things. So can they draw it? Can they have a picture of it? So to be creative in that. But the probably the most important thing is for the parent to model it. If the parent doesn't say, because uh certainly as a parent from from from my end, I was always quite nervous watching my children do their sport when they were in important situations. So for me to go, oh, this is how I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking. Um, and having parents who can show the vulnerability can show that they have a mixture of, you know, sometimes they're happy, sometimes they're sad, sometimes they're thinking they can do something, sometimes they don't, you know, modeling all of that for the for your children, I think is a really important thing because that gives the the the child the space to be able to go, okay. Yeah, that's I'm not the only one here. Mum thinks this, dad thinks this. So often I've worked with young people where the parents are modelling something very different, and it's really hard then for the child to open up if the parent isn't willing to be um open to.

Speaker 20:53

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a real challenge. And I think that leads on, probably particularly around how we create our own narrative of what's negative and what's deemed as failure. Um, you know, I said at the beginning, that's probably one of those key topics, but actually a large part of failure, disappointment, negativity is we can do an awful lot by how we frame that in the home environment and how we talk about and perceive all of those things. How do we how do we help our young people around perceived failure and disappointment? What do you think we can do as parents based on some of some of your work or what you've seen?

Speaker 2 21:43

Jenna and I giving each other telepathic looks.

Speaker 1 21:47

Do you want me to start? Yeah, go on, Alison.

Speaker 2 21:51

Um It's such a thorny a thorny topic. One thing that came to mind, so uh and I I I think sometimes I think failure is such a black and white thing. And actually, you know, performance, and we see in a very black and white type of area, success or failure. And some of that comes from the labels we attach to our children and their performance that we so I I noticed myself, well, my daughter was um 14, she she won a national championship in the sport that she was doing. And I noticed myself giving her a label of, oh, so you're a national champion. And I suddenly wished I could suck the words back into my mouth as they'd come out of my mouth. Because I realized I'd I'd put something onto her in terms of success and failure. Was actually, so she'd won a national championship. She's done some great rowing, she was a rower, some great rowing. She'd worked really hard with her partner, they'd worked well together, she'd committed herself all the way to the end. I I could have focused on all of those inputs as opposed to giving her a label. And again, part of the the acceptance of commitment underpinning is holding loosely who we think we are as an athlete or as a as a and we think our children are as well. Which is quite a hard concept to get your head around, that they're not the kind of content of what we the labels that we give them, that they're that they're the person, they're the doing. So actually, it's about to me, you can change completely the whole notion of failure. It doesn't really exist. It's just a setback, it's just something that's not taking you in the direction of where you want to go. And if you can loosen your child from all the labels that you give them about being something or not being something, um, it opens up stuff. And actually, what you're interested in is is the effort they put in, the curiosity, whether they take the actions that they they want to do that move them towards where they want to be. Um, so yeah, that's one of what's certainly one of my perspectives.

Speaker 1 24:07

Yeah, I definitely agree. How are we how are we defining success and failure? I I had one parent who would always say to me after a game, um, did you play well? And the other parent would always say to me, Did you enjoy it? And for me, that sort of just sums it up in terms of you know, one parent was much more interested in whether I scored a goal or whether I helped the team to win, or you know, maybe who was watching and if it helped me get selected for the next thing, you know, with with the best intentions, I'm sure. And the other parent would really only really care about if I enjoyed it. And um, you know, thinking back now, sort of I I valued, I suppose, both um, because there's you know, I felt a driving force from one parent, but I felt unconditional, doesn't matter how you played, um, as long as you had a good time from another parent. Um, and both were quite helpful. But I suppose in terms of how I felt, and in safety and comfort and willingness to be okay with not playing my best, was knowing that actually enjoying it, seeing my friends, you know, some of the qualities that Alison just spoke about was success as well. Um, and you know, having a having a day out on the hockey pitch rather than sitting in front of the TV was that's a that's successful day. Um, you know, connecting, laughing, doing something active, all of that is is is success as well, even if I played rubbish or we lost, which is sort of how we probably define um failing. There's lots of successes in that day as well. So maybe I think helping for parents helping their children to see that if it was a disaster in terms of the result, there will be other successes in that day. We might just have to work a little bit harder to find them.

Speaker 25:52

Oh, yeah. I mean, I I think the uh go on, Alison. You go and add to that.

Speaker 2 25:56

I was gonna say one one of the um chapters in the book is chapter five, I think, which is about um doing what matters. And we talk about values in there. That's not something that in sport we often spend a lot of time with athletes doing, is what's important to you? What's the direction you want to go in? What are those kind of key qualities that you want to exhibit? And I think that's what Jen is alluding to, is that we're um we can always move towards doing those things. So if one of your values is courage, can you step forward in a game and play with courage? If one of your values is trust, can you trust yourself to mark your opponent or trust your team member? You know, if one of them's care, can you play in a way that's considerate of other people? You can always do all of those things, always through your competition, through your training, um, through your practice and so on. And that's a much better way of also evaluating your performance, going, did I live my values? Did I move towards being how I want to be as an athlete and as a person in the this world? And that's some much more sustainable. And it's not pass or fail because every day, every moment, you can do those things. So, you know, that that's the way I like to work now with athletes to go, that's success. Did you did you live your values? Did you move towards being who you want to be? Rather than as Jenna said, you know, did you win the match? Did you, you know, score a goal, etc.?

Speaker 27:19

Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely fantastic advice. I I think more and more I think we're heading in the right direction with all of this. You know, I spend a lot of time with parents talking about um, are we helping our kids understand why they're winning, why they've been successful? And it's actually all the building blocks that hold it together. You talked about values, I talk about some of the things that underpin whether they're going to be brilliant people or brilliant on the sports field, because you're going to need that even if you wanted your children to be a professional, even if they're probably not going to be, because sports are so messy and so many uncontrollables, that there is so much more value to what your kids are doing if you're able to be explicit about it and talk about it. And you've raised the prime challenge that parents have, you know, where we're programmed by society, where sports are massively powerful. Um, we celebrate winning, we see losing as as failure. And lots of parents who with no sporting backgrounds often just copy what they see on the TV. So it's no surprise that many of the questions that they do ask the children are the ones that you talked about. The probably the three most popular questions asked by parents to their kids are did you win? Did you score? And were you the best player? And how did you compare to everybody else? Yet the kids tell you that comparison's the worst thing in the world. Now, unraveling that is quite hard because it's almost like a program question, isn't it? For parents. I did it the other week for I was away somewhere. First question, did you win? Now it's not because it's the only thing I value, but actually, that's what I led with. And you look a bit like you, Alison, you think, oh, you're an absolute idiot. You know, you talk about this and then you've just fallen straight into the into the trap yourself.

Speaker 1 29:12

And it's not that there's anything wrong with that question per se, but what that question is saying to me as the child is what my parent values is whether I won or not. That's just how it comes across, even if it's not, you know, it's a part of it. But yeah, we we we can tell a lot from the questions that we get asked, can't we?

Speaker 29:30

Yeah, and I think I think with that one as well, what uh you know, in a lot of cases, and a lot of parents are brilliant when you can admit your own vulnerability and your own failings, they also say, God, yeah, what a nightmare. I do that. I mean, some of them admitted, you know, if the children answer no to each of those, that's the end of the chat till next, right? You know, that those three questions. Charles says, Oh, well, that's it. And as you say, the what we're valuing or what we're telling the kids a value don't doesn't look particularly good till somebody points it out to you. I always think grandparents are the best for this. Because a lot of the kids say, I love watching my grandpa, my grandparents watching us because they're just genuinely happy and want us to do well. But they're definitely the worst for questions. Whenever I put mine on the on the call at the weekend, first question is, did you win? And then the second one is did you score? You know, when you've got children who are defender, one who's a defender as well, well, the chances of them scoring. There's a there's not going to be much success on that question. You know, and that I think that's a grand, you know, that's uh that's a grandparents' thing. Um so we've talked about, I guess, the types of question, we've talked about helping our kids have the right values. Um we've talked about bringing to life some of those other parts of the of the sporting experience. And I guess you know, your your chapter that we've just touched on, except being uncomfortable. Um I definitely prefer this to um embracing failure. When our kids are upset and they're disappointed and uh maybe tearful, maybe they're crying, and we're desperate to right the wrongs of the world, which is what we do as parents. Any thoughts on what we try to do or what we attempt to do, no matter how difficult that may be?

Speaker 2 31:29

I wanted to pass to Jenna because she she's better, she knows she wrote this part of the book. I'd say one of the things is to teach our children how to hold themselves gently, to self-soothe, to have compassion. I know, Jenna, do you want to speak a bit?

Speaker 1 31:44

Yeah, you you wrote the that part of the Yeah, I mean I think um it's it's as much accepting as parents, isn't it? And if we can accept as parents that all of these feelings are inevitable, and sport comes with you know playing badly, not getting selected, getting injured, all of those things. We know with almost you know 100% certainty that these things are going to happen, but yet when they do, we don't want them. We don't want them to happen. And of course, what what acceptance is about is not you don't want these sort of let's quote unquote negative feelings or or thoughts, and you don't want these unhelpful ones, you don't want these bad things to happen, but acceptance is recognizing that they will, and that is a part of it. And if we can do that as parents, you then, like we talked about earlier, you're then modelling that for your child as well. I think one of the most powerful things is Alison talked about um that that sort of space is listening, and the reason why open questions, you know, did you win? It's a closed question. It's eliciting a yes or no answer. You know, how is that from your perspective today? Is an open question. They then have to think about things, they have to reflect on it to answer that question. Um, and it's you know, it's it's tempting, isn't it, when someone comes in with an answer to say, oh, but yeah, but but don't worry because of this or that, or or come in with a with a sort of counter and actually acceptances leave it there, like as much as we want to fix it, that's that's just the way it was today, and and that's okay. Um, and you know, maybe there's there's some things that you might come back to to think about doing differently next time. And you know, it's not it's not excluding that, but I suppose in that moment when your child is articulating something, it just being there to listen rather than to add in with a counter or a butt or um and and that then that then promotes acceptance, doesn't it? Because we're just allowing things to be as they are.

Speaker 2 33:53

Yeah, and teach them to respond in a way that they would if you say to them, how you how are you talking to yourself right now? And they usually go, Well, I'm being really critical and then beating myself up, and by saying, Well, uh, what would you say to your friend? They go, Well, I put an arm around my friend. So teaching them to put an arm around themselves and go, actually, okay, you know, hey, be all right tomorrow, or or it's okay to feel that, or here, let me just give you a hug, kind of thing. I think teaching them to learn to do that for themselves, as well as you as a parent doing that to them too, going, hey, it's okay. Yeah, I think that's a great skill to teach your children.

Speaker 1 34:34

We we'd never talk to our friends like we talk to ourselves, would we? So it's it that's a nice one to help children understand that we are with ourselves of the time. And if we are, you know, continually critical to ourselves, it can be quite exhausting.

Speaker 34:50

Yeah, I think there's there's some amazing points in there, I guess, from a parental point of view. Uh, one of the things I found being around young people and and doing odd bits of sessions um with them, they almost need to understand that a lot of those things you're talking about are normal. Whenever you show them what journeys look like and what are a normal part that they can expect, as you say, Jenna, not because we necessarily want them, we just know that they're gonna crop up at at some point we can predict it. There's quite a lot at the moment who are a few have recently have sort of said an awful lot of thank yous. And I've sort of said, Well, what what do you mean, thank you? And they're saying, Oh, well, thanks for telling us that it's not always gonna be perfect. Thanks for telling us that it's not always gonna be right. Thanks for telling us that we're all right to mess it up and and fail. And that and this is what they're saying back, and you wonder how young people are growing up with that narrative. And I think then, God, we probably go down a massive rabbit warren about everything to do with society, technology, modern-day parenting, and and everything else. But it is a real challenge, isn't it? Because some of the things that we know hold human beings together, and some of the things that may lead to performance actually probably require us to fight an awful lot with what we're seeing in in wider society at the moment. What what what are your thoughts around that?

Speaker 1 36:23

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting one, isn't it? Fundamentally, parents who are listening to this podcast care. They care about trying to get it right, and that is the intent behind that is it's got to be you know one of the most important things. And we're gonna get it wrong in all sorts of ways. And I certainly feel very ill-equipped to um to sort of advise on on parenting at this point, but I I do know that we we will get it wrong. Um, but if I care about trying to get it right, um, you know, that's that's at the heart of it. And you know, social media, um tech, and you know, all of these things that our our children are are facing, if if I'm there uh in a supportive way, trying to do the right thing, trying to care, um, I think that that's got to be one of the most important things.

Speaker 2 37:14

And and I would say also encouraging your club coach to facilitate some of these conversations that we're having right now, so that children go, Oh, I'm not the only one, am I? You I've always watched you on the pitch and you look like you never bothered about anything, but and you are, you know, it's it's that kind of conversation to show that in the environment they're in, they're not the only ones who might, you know, think some thoughts or feel some stuff.

Speaker 37:42

Yeah, and and we want to help these young people, you know, talk about emotional control and being able to perform, and we need to help them with that. Um, the it's always sad watching the sort of you know, fully blown tantrum on stuff that isn't actually that big a deal, and you desperately just want to help those those young people. Um, just say it's all right, it's not the end of the world. And I think we we've probably all got some work to do around our sporting environments in how we frame, as you say, some of these conversations we're talking about, because we've got quite good at the technical, tactical stuff. It's all the other stuff around the environment that that we've probably got some some work to do, I think.

Speaker 2 38:29

And I think the other thing that that's really key with our act underpinning is is refocusing and going, okay, the thoughts and the feelings we don't get to control. They're like buses passing by, they're like leaves on a stream, they're like the weather that comes through. Sometimes it's it's rainy, sometimes it's cloudy, sometimes it's sunny. And we do get to choose how we act. So I think that's what a beautiful focus of act is going, okay, the stuff going on in your head is going to go on, give it space. Don't accept it, make space for it, don't hold on to it too tightly, put it in perspective. And though, we're in sport, and sport is about doing stuff. You don't get good at sport, you don't win games, you don't perform well if you don't do stuff. So let's think about what's important to you to do and go go do it. And I think that's the lovely counterbalance here that you're not just spending lots of time thinking about your emotions, you're noticing them and you're noticing where they detract from you performing. You don't need to fight with them, but you can then focus on what you need to do. And that's what I love about ACT. It's so you know, act action-oriented about okay, let's now go and do the things that we need to do.

unknown 39:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1 39:42

And that emotional storm that you you spoke about. Sorry, Gordon. Yeah, the um the sort of tantrum or the the fully fledged um, you know, we could we refer to it as a bit of an emotional storm going on in your mind. Um, you know, again, you know, in in in this philosophy, that that is okay, that in itself is not a problem. It's when you start slamming your racket or shouting or the behavior that follows that then becomes so actually it's if this emotional storm is going on, for sure. Let's teach you some strategies to help you manage, you know, or or deal with or or cope with that. But then as Alison said, it's what's who who is the going back to values? Who's the the person you want to be, who's the performance player you want to be, and acting sort of in line with that? So, you know, keeping my my chin up and my shoulders back, even if I've just let a goal in, or even if I've just made a mistake, um, you know, body language, actions, and behaviors, I think that's that's a really tangible focus.

Speaker 40:44

Yeah, I think your action piece, and that's a nice thing about the book. It isn't just theory, it's like, well, actually, what can we do about it? I think you you read an awful lot of things, don't you? Where people say, Well, here's the problem, and there's no solutions. And um, I certainly like that in the book. I mean, that emotional control one's a really interesting one. And I I sort of completely changed my view on it. Um, after speaking to Steve Magnus, who wrote the book Do Hard Things, and he was part of the Nike Oregon project with Mo Farr and Alberto Salazar. He came on the podcast, and I used to have this theory that okay, I didn't mind people being a little bit upset by it because you know it clearly shows that they care or that it's important to them, and all of those sort of thoughts that we maybe grew up with. And he said, Yeah, but Gordon, you're looking at this all wrong because when you're seeing those behaviors, he was of the view, well, they haven't learned to emotionally control themselves yet. And he said, actually, there should be a conversation there. Yes, they can care, yes, they can do, but it goes back to what you say. Actually, how do we want to be? How are we accepting how we feel, and what can we actually do to to keep a lid on on some some aspects of that?

Speaker 2 42:02

And I think we we'd say there's a fine line between controlling your emotion, and I think Jenna and I would both go from our underpinning of psychology, we go, can't do that, can't do that, and can control the action that follows. So that's so it's like a really subtle, you know, like the feeling of rage that comes up when you've missed a point. That feel let that feeling come up, make space for it. And absolutely the next thing that you do, you are in control of.

Speaker 42:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 42:34

But it's the action, not the the internal kind of emotion and and thought that you're not in control of. And that to me, going right back to where you you asked me the question, for me, that was the sticking plaster as a psychologist. I felt I was asking athletes to stick on, control your emotions, control your thoughts, only think positive things, only feel positive emotions, using those words in inverted commas. And as soon as I learnt act and realized, okay, don't have to fight all of that, but I do have to decide what I do next. Do I step up and mark my partner? Do I step up and kick that ball straight? Do I focus on what I need to do? Absolutely, you're in control of all of that. It's we we do a lovely exercise. Um, oh go on, it's one of Jenna's lovely exercises, the disobey on purpose exercise.

Speaker 1 43:27

Yeah, so you if you you would say to someone, for example, if they're sat down, you'd say, Okay, think in your mind as clearly as you can. I can't stand up. I can't stand up, I can't stand up, repeat that, repeat that over and over again. Get it so clear in your mind, crystal clear. Um, and then you just ask them to stand up. And of course, you know, it's not people think it's some weird psychological experiment, but it's not. You get stand up and and you you see how easy it is to stand up, even though you had this really clear thought in your mind that you can't do that. And it's it's this sort of concept that actually we don't have to believe all of our thoughts. And there'll be um, you know, so many thoughts that we have when we're playing sport, I can't do this, or or don't mess up, or you know, this isn't or whatever, all these things that are really unhelpful. And actually the realization that we don't have to listen to them all, we can just let that one pass, as Alison said, you know, cloud in the sky, let it pass, it will pass, and so but focus on the actions and behavior, and that is is what you know, once you get your head around that concept, it can be so transformative, sport and life. The fact that we're not, you know, wedded to and all of our thoughts aren't true, and we don't have to believe them all, can can just lighten the load so much. Um, so yeah.

Speaker 44:42

I th I think do you know what? I think that's just the most wonderful place to end because I think we've summarized it beautifully. You know, we talked about lots of different bits, but that crystal clear idea of acknowledging that the thoughts are there, that those emotions are going to be there, but then actually what we do next is the key to it. And being able to, you know, we're in control of that and we can reset ourselves and do the next things well. Uh, I just think it's a really big message. And uh I and both of you, thank you so much for uh giving up your time. And in many ways, talking about a topic that I think for sports parents is a real challenge. Uh, and hopefully we've tried to make some sense of of what we can do to help our young people um around this. You know, we want them all to thrive, and uh, I'm very grateful for the time you've given me, but also for for creating this book, which we'll certainly recommend um to people as part of the show notes um when it when it's released. So thank you for joining me. Thank you for listening, check it out.uk